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Posts: 2,654 Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario (Canada) Rep Power: 10 | How Do YOU Treat Service Providers? -
04-25-2006, 07:42 PM
I just posted a rant... and a marketing lesson... in my blog. If you're a copywriter with some experience, you'll understand its message. And if you're new, then I hope this helps you, too. Warning: I'm a little strong in this post. It's not an article per se, but more of a blog post -- and a lament -- that's a little more abrasive than articles I'm accustomed to writing.
It's about... of course... dealing with vampire copywriting clients. Scoot on over and take a peek. There's a really interesting USA Today article mentioned in it, too.
If you were in the service industry before, such as waiting tables -- like Sylvie and I have -- or the owner of a business, then you'll get a kick from it. http://www.MichelFortin.com/
Enjoy. (Or maybe not.)  Michel Fortin FREE One-Hour Video Tutorial! Discover how to make money online with any business in just four simple steps. Free video shows you how. Click here to watch this video » | | | | | Grand Master
Posts: 1,385 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bejaia, Algeria Rep Power: 4 | 
04-25-2006, 07:53 PM
I enjoy reading it. The beginner.
(Time to take some actions) | | | | | Grand Master
Posts: 1,074 Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Rep Power: 4 | 
04-25-2006, 11:52 PM
Great post, Michel. Just curious: why don't you do what Harlan is always telling copywriters to do, and collect all your fees up front? With your track record and reputation, you could certainly do that.
That way, you would identify some of the problem clients before you even get started. It wouldn't solve all of the problems you noted, but it would take care of a lot of them.
Of course, as you said, in the long run promoting your own products is the way to go.
Ken S. | | | | | Copywriter
Posts: 2,654 Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario (Canada) Rep Power: 10 | 
04-26-2006, 12:02 AM
I do Ken. I have since 2 years ago. Sylvie doesn't, however. And my post ranted about both people failing to pay their bills as well as those who, in my case, expect free rewrites and nitpick endlessly to justify their requests...
... When often, the problem has nothing to do with the copy but that they don't have the money, and prefer to freeload, abuse service providers like me and make their crises our own, all in an attempt to get more for free. Michel Fortin FREE One-Hour Video Tutorial! Discover how to make money online with any business in just four simple steps. Free video shows you how. Click here to watch this video » | | | | | Junior Expert
Posts: 249 Join Date: Mar 2005 Rep Power: 4 | And that doesn't always work, anyhow. -
04-26-2006, 12:18 AM
Even if you get all your money up front, you still have the problems Michel described - or I should say that has been my experience.
I have several clients in mind, some of them "big" names, who treated me rather poorly. One paid all up front (it was a BIG check), gave me no feedback during the project, and gave me approval at the end. "Looks good," I think was the feedback I got. Some time later, I got a ranting phone call from this nightmare client about how he wasn't happy, nit-picking some of the most ludicrous things in the copy (for instance, he didn't like the way I used semi-colons!), and demanding a refund.
I didn't give it to him.
Mainly because he really was being abusive. Had he asked reasonably... or explained that he was in a money crunch and just needed some cash... I might have tried to work with him. But I don't like being "walked on", and that is definitely what this person was trying to do.
All this happened even though:
1. I collected my fee upfront.
2. My contract clearly states: "THERE ARE NO REFUNDS."
I do think the practice of getting paid up front is wise...but I also know from experience that it won't remove these problems from your reality.
I hate the fact that Michel and Sylvie have had these experiences -- but I take a small bit of comfort in knowing it's not just me that gets stung by "stinker clients" every now and then. Ray Edwards | | | | | Copywriter
Posts: 2,654 Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario (Canada) Rep Power: 10 | 
04-26-2006, 12:28 AM
Hey, welcome back Ray! Michel Fortin FREE One-Hour Video Tutorial! Discover how to make money online with any business in just four simple steps. Free video shows you how. Click here to watch this video » | | | | | Junior Expert
Posts: 249 Join Date: Mar 2005 Rep Power: 4 | Great to BE back... -
04-26-2006, 12:32 AM
Thanks Michel! I have been sooooo sick with some kind of flu or something. It's great to be back.
I am appreciating the gift of just being "healthy" -- sometimes we take those simple things for granted (or at least I do).  Ray Edwards | | | | | Expert
Posts: 349 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Dallas, Texas Rep Power: 4 | 
04-26-2006, 10:29 AM
Michel,
Enjoyed reading your post and the waiter article. Reminds me of a saying I read:
"You can tell the character of someone by how they treat someone that can do nothing for them".
I think if one looks at these vampire clients, the waiter rule will apply to them in all asepcts of their life. If they are being like this with you, rest assured, they are doing it with all other service providers, you just caught in the middle and its not your problem.
Many people may not beleive this happens to 'Michel Fortin' but Im glad you wrote this. It's tough out there.
I didnt work in the food industry but I did previously work in debt collection. (Not the Russian Mafia type that pummel you if you dont pay).
I called people on the phone for payment. Now I probably got subject to more abuse than a donkey pulling an overloaded cart uphill on the streets of Cairo.
People felt entitled to abuse those they felt were 'beneath' them.
However they would change 180 degrees when I would utter the word 'repossession'. They became sweethearts.
Lesson is, people are easily corrupted by power, greed and arrogance. We all have our time on this Earth, so best to use it for the betterment of others. | | | | | Junior Member
Posts: 22 Join Date: Feb 2006 Rep Power: 0 | 
04-26-2006, 01:41 PM
Michel
I found your blog post a bit confusing.
You say "We should accept that [our clients] can negotiate with us to no end, ask us for unlimited free work, milk our generosity and willingness to serve them for everything they can".
What part are you playing in that?
Are you allowing them to negotiate? If your fee is X, and the client says that's too much; you say that's what you'll do it for; and if it's not accepted that's the end of the story.
Why do you do any free work for business clients? It opens the door for abuse.
If you're charging what you're worth, they can't be milking your generosity and willingness to serve.
It is true we have less control over clients not paying bills. Apart from a water-tight contract, getting paid up front, recourse to legal action... sometimes that will happen. But if you believe you've delivered at value for money, why enter any correspondence on the matter - make your demands (per the contract) - end of story. (Though you won't always get paid).
You go on.. "Some clients, such as my copywriting clients, have come back for revisions to their copy almost a year after the project was hired..." You either have a clause in the contract that precludes this, or you tell them it's unreasonable and you won't do it.
Later you say...
"Try to understand people's situations before you jump to conclusions. Treat everyone with respect and dignity. Never take advantage of others. Always strive for win-win." I agree wholeheartedly. But you go on...
"Do as much as you can to overdeliver... And above all, be generous with your time, your energy and your money, as it will all come back to you -- sometimes in surprising and unexpected ways."
I don't see the need to overdeliver in a business arrangement. Charge what you're worth and perform at a very high standard - and that's the case if you have fifteen years experience or it's your first copywriting job.
I think being generous with time, energy and money is much better kept out of business dealings. I spend my "free" time with my kids, or helping at their school, visiting an elderly friend who appreciates the company; as well as taking time for myself. Why should I give that time to a client, who may go on to abuse it? We could mentor someone starting out, who really needs the help. Write for nothing for a charity. Pay for someone to go on a course. But I believe in doing it all consciously, giving freely, separate from business contracts.
When I'm angry, I always stop and ask myself what I could do differently in the situation. And I always find something - it might be speaking up or putting a firm boundary in place. There's always something I can do.
In the same way that Eleanor Roosevelt said we can't be humiliated without our permission, I think we can go a long way to not being taken advantage of by not allowing it to happen.
You seem like an incredibly generous and kind person - don't let yourself be taken advantage of.
Janet | | | | | Copywriter
Posts: 2,654 Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario (Canada) Rep Power: 10 | 
04-26-2006, 01:53 PM
Janet,
The case in particular I mentioned in my post was a client who came back and nitpicked everything, right down to minute details and writing emails as long as that single post itself, all to simply justify getting the free work...
... or more specifically, trying to "find" errors, exaggerate mistakes, and "create" disputes to emphasize my failure to fulfill my contractual obligations, in order to justify getting the free work in the first place.
Yes, I do have an air-tight contract. But I still had to read all their emails, and/or fight their exacting requests by providing documentation to prove I did fulfill my obligations, and/or pay my assistants/staff to gather all the proof to fight it, and/or challenge them on every single point in their long emails, and/or resort to legal action...
... this is the point.
They are sucking (or trying to suck, in this case) my money, my time, emotional energy and generosity. Even if I refuse to give in. Dealing with these vampires requires just as much energy as giving into their incessant and unreasonable demands.
And that's my point. Air-tight contracts will never stop those who are abusive and wish to abuse you. They'll fight tooth and nail just to get what they want, even if they have no hope of winning. And that battle, itself, is very time- and energy-consuming. Michel Fortin FREE One-Hour Video Tutorial! Discover how to make money online with any business in just four simple steps. Free video shows you how. Click here to watch this video » | | | | |
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