Hello everyone, I've been a lurker for quite a while. I want to thank everyone for all the valuable info I find here. When I saw this post, I couldn't resist!

I'm an American who has lived in France for 10 years. I'm surprised at how many people make the comment that American is so rich, so how could they have such poor.

Isn't that part of the definition of capitalism? There are a lot of the two extremes: rich and poor. In France, it's really the opposite. Socialism, by definition is power to the people. There are no safety nets in capitalism because that's capitalism. period. There are tons of safety nets in socialism - and even more in communism. I think France is the only country to have people voluntarily join the communist party.

Anyway, I spend a good amount of time explaining to Europeans that capitalism isn't all bad - and vice versa to Americans about socialism.
In an ideal world we'd be in the middle somewhere.

I love Americans. As much as I love the French, they're not as frendly, in general. But I'd love to see Americans applying more social programs. And teaching them that it's not the government sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong but it's the people controling their government more.

Maybe a strong post to introduce myself but it's all about understanding that there are good points and bad points to everything.

Lisa

No safety nets in capitalism...Capitalism is obviously something you don't understand. If there are no safety nets, then what are the millions of dollars (probably billions by the end of this month) being donated by companies and individuals?????

Socialism isn't a safety net. It's the death of ambition. Comunism is the murder of ambition.

America has a history of doing what everyone says we can't do...like building a city on a swamp.

We won't need socialist (certainly not communist) ideals to fix this thing. We'll handle it OK, and then we'll rebuild. Our enginuity (and the freedom to express it) is the reason we became a world power inside of a couple hundred years. This isn't an illustration of why capitalism fails. This is a sore toe. We'll put a bandaid on it, and it will heal.


Hey, I can't do any more than donate money from my house right now. And since our discussion (no matter what we say) won't help a single soul, I see no reason not to discuss these things.

Money being donated by companies and individuals is not a safety net - those are people deciding to donate. And I agree the Americans are good at that. But that's not something built into the governmenting system. When I was pregnant, ALL my medical bills were paid. I didn't have to wait for anyone to decide to help me out. Everyone gets this kind of aid when they're pregnant.

I'm not saying capitalism is bad; I'm just saying in every type of government there are positives and negatives. In capitalism, there aren't a lot of programs to help the poor. It's not a judgement. Just a statement.

with respect,
Lisa

Further to what Lisa said, one does not necessarily preclude the other. They can actually work quite well alongside each other, which is how I would describe the UK - largely capitalist, but with a socialist infrastructure.

As with virtually everything in life, the problems occur at the extremities. Unfettered capitalism means that everything is dominated by market forces, and the motivation behind everything is share prices and profits. But making profits does not always lead to the most socially desirable outcome. Think of huge corporations who've moved all their manufacturing to China. There are a number of undesirable side-effects to this - loss of jobs to westerners, Chinese people working in sweatshops for 16 hours per day and who only get one day off per month; environmental damage and pollution when the goods are shipped back to the west. When everything is left to market forces, then you end up with economic apartheid - the haves have far more than they need, and the have-nots don't even have access to basic healthcare or unemployment benefits. One spirals up, the other spirals down. At the extreme, you end up with violence and excess, uncontrollable criminality. South Africa comes to mind. White, middle class folks live behind barricades, with a gun under their pillow and security guards patrolling the perimeter and carjacking is a regular event. Meanwhile, a worryingly large number of people live in shanty towns without even basic services, and die of preventible diseases.

Equally, an excess of socialism does not appear to be healthy either as it kills ambition. Britain was virtually brought to its knees in the 70s when moderate to high income earners had to pay 60% tax, and the Unions had an excessive amount of power.

I like to see what's going on in all political corners. Apparently Castro's communism in Cuba has actually produced some very positive results, and the benign dictatorship in Singapore is certainly not all bad (although not my choice of system).

Jane

What you just told me is a negative...not a positive. It only reinforces my point about socialism. I America, you would have fond a way...just as so many do.

But socialism has already corrupted our own version of ccapitalism enough so that you would have gotten the same results here. My wife was pregnant with number 5, I got laid off, everything was paid for. hmmm. where's the incentive to buy insurence?

Oh well, if the gov hadn't paid for it, I would've found another way.

Socialism will never work because there'll always be people who want to earn less than they take, and there'll always be people who take more than they earn.

don't take this as me being cold or insensative.

Any society will have poor people . the american poor in many cases have a lifstyle that would be middle to upperclass in most third world or developing countries . the american poor have the obiesity of any class. they have food the have shelter. they have opportunities .. they don't take .

The Amercian model has been withered away . America is a sick example of Deomcracy and socialism mixxed together . The American people in the last 50 years have gone from a mindset of Freedom from big government to dependence on large governement .. for everything.

This is why the problems in new orleans and the devastated area of 90,000 square miles. got so out of hand. the mayor couldn't lead so he turned to the state the state couldn't do nothing so they turned to the fedral goverment . When big huge buracratic government moves slow.

New oreleans leadership has know something like this was possible. the governer of that state new it was possible, the fed new it was possible . but ther are two hundred posible catastrophies the fed has to plan for . bye leaving it all up to the fed ... the state and local government screwed up.

The problems with safty nets . is in america they turned into spiders webs . once your on social assitence and you can only get on social assictence when you don't have anything . you are stuck on social programs forever.

the more people on social programs the more people who would vote for those who won't threaten the programs . It is not a side effect of capatalism . IT it the coruption of government purpose from helping people be self sufficiant . to trapping people into dependence on goverment.

What has happened in new orleans . Is what happens when you have a large sections of the population trained to sit and wait . For the federal goverment to help.

What made America Great was the pople who got up and did stuff on their own.

Ken

P.s. this is a message from a poor american ,who never qualifiedfor any safty nets .

I will be the first to admit that the system in France is NOT working - there are so many reforms that nothing can pass through the congress and assembly. The 35 hr work week is a complete disaster! Of course there are a lot of people coasting through life, living off of others hard work. But I have many friends here who are proud of their work (just as I'm sure you are) and therefore, work hard.

Look, I know you must be intelligent if you manage to make a living at copywriting. Do you honestly believe there are no problems with the American system of capitalism?

I think in life, extremes are never good.

Lisa

Amen Brother!

This thread is getting my blood boiling!

How many Cubans have you ever met and spoken to about the "positive results of communism"?!

If things are so great in Cuba, why does Southern Florida have people washing up onto the shore by the thousands?

Why would people be so willing to put out to sea in rafts made of busted crates and actual garbage, float across 90 miles of shark infested waters, with the knowledge that if they don't die in the water and if they don't get picked up by Cuban patrols (and then imprisoned or executed) they have the hope of making it to freedom?

One of my closest friends left Cuba 9 years ago. He, his wife and their 3 children spent 6 days and nights floating on a "raft" made of lashed together tires and scrap wood.

He arrived in the United States with literally nothing but the clothing on his back. When the "loving, caring compassionate communists" in Cuba learned of his family's "escape" his mother, father and brother (still living in Cuba) were arrested by the government and spent over a year in Cuban prison... Just because they were related to him. His mother died in that prison, just 3 weeks before the rest of the family was released.

Yep... You're right. Government is responsible for taking "care" of the individual. Cubans are doing just fine under Castro...

Nine years after washing up onto the shore south of Miami without a penny to his name, he owns one of the largest golf course maintenance firms in Kansas City, and his oldest child just started college at Stanford.

Yep... Again you're right. He would have been much better off rolling cigars in Havana for $2.45 per day.

Nor should it be built into the Governmental system!

Sure there are... They are called JOBS! It is called OPPORTUNITY and FREEDOM!

If liberalism/socialism/communism is the solution, why did the Soviet experiment FAIL after only 70 years and the American experiment is still hanging on after 230?

Eric

First of all, I'm deeply sorry about my grammatical errors. I will try to watch that in the future.

Has anyone here visited these areas before the hurricane? Do most people believe that that many people were too lazy to get jobs and work to make money to get out of their situation? There were a lot of run-down areas that were hit.

Just a side-note; my sister works 3 jobs, one of which is a house cleaner. She is a single parent. No one who knows her would call her lazy. She lives in a tiny house (borderline shack) in Iowa. She can only afford basic insurance so when her son gets sick, paying for the medicine just about kills the money for the week.

I don't think socialism will solve all the problems in America but I think it's really sad she works that hard for very little. Over here, for example, if a house cleaner works a full week (not part time) all the employers help pay for medical and dental benefits. If they are a hard worker, and it's a needed job, sounds fair to me.

My father worked for the government for over 40 yrs. Now they take just under half his retirement to pay for medication. I don't know what the answer is but somehow that doesn't seem fair to me.

Lisa

Boy, it seems like this thread deteriorated...but it really didn't. When something like this happens, people are bound to point fingers. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that as long as they point in the right direction.

And sometimes we need a break from copywriting to vent.

Well, a lot of people do think that. A lot of the people who were crying for help were in the poor areas. It's not up to me to judge why they were poor. But I can say that if they had no 'safety net', they wouldv't found a way to survive. Maybe that would've increased the crime rate slightly (which was already high). But only at first. At the same time, it would have created a powerful new working class. Over the years, that working class would've become a 'white shirt' working class.

I'm not sure what the solution is to the problem we have right now. But I can agree that the problem started when people tried to find a balance between socialism and capitalism, calling it Americanism.