Shaune,

Everyone who ever undertakes a venture with passion and enthusiasm brings a new perspective to it and a new refinement. I do not doubt you on this point, nor do I doubt that you deliver your work in your own unique way or bring new insights. That is not the issue.

Pause words have been discussed on here before, and in fact one of your co-hosts related the story of "bon-uses" from his time working at an ad agency. And rhythmn and cadence get discussed here and in other non-copywriting forums. Nothing ground-breakingly new there from my experience.

Is this new? Whilst I may not use that exact phraseology, it is the answer to those sorts of questions that a good consultant or coach will be looking for during the research phase. And actually, when you presented this idea, I didn't quite understand the context. To me, that question is quite aggressive, which is useful in terms of drawing out pertinent information from the client, but I'm not sure I understand the value in terms of creating rapport with the client.

I don't want to diminish the value of this if it works extraordinarily well for you. However, I don't see this as a radical departure from just generally good consulting practice. Good professionals ask better questions. End of.

I didn't really understand this either, which is why I asked. The challenge, it seems, is to get people on the phone ON THEIR TERMS and to offer some immediate benefit for them spending time with you. Nothing new here at all - consultants have been using the free 30 minute consultation since God was a boy.

I didn't understand your take on it, which came across to me as inviting potential clients to interview you. I'd be willing to bet money that this wouldn't work in my market because:

1) business people are busy and they don't have time to conduct interviews
2) They'd see straight through it and would assume that it was a disguised sales pitch

In fact, I thought it was rather contrived. However, I do understand the principle, which is to change the offer from:

- I'm a copywriter trying to sell you writing services

to

- I'm a consultant with valuable information/insights that can help your business and I'll let you have 30 minutes of my time if you're lucky

And whether you package that as an interview, getting acquainted session, free consultation, Q&A session, "pick my brains" session etc. is a matter of testing. In a situation approaching ideal, your prospects would already be qualified and presold before you ever spoke to them (usually through education on your website and involvement devices such as quizzes and reviews).

You may have noticed that I call my approach "attraction" marketing. This implies, and delivers, a strong sense of soft selling. In fact, it's my experience that you can't sell consulting and coaching by any other means for the simple reason that the decision to buy is not an instant one. People need to feel comfortable with you; they need to like you and they need to trust that you will put their interests first in all of your dealings with them.

If you read my material, you'll find that I explain the phenomenon of prospects running for the hills, and what happens if you ever try to force a child or animal to do something. It doesn't work. Hard selling used to work (and the socio-economics of that are beyond the scope of this discussion), but it doesn't work well any more - in most markets. Ken may disagree with me here - but I think his market has a very different mindset to mine. Most people hate to be sold, clever marketers have known that for years, and therefore you have to find ways to get the shy kitten to come to you. Whether that's through the offer of an interview or whatever is, as I said, a matter of testing approaches.

Sidenote: If your pipeline is full, and if your positioning is good, then you should never have to sell anyone anyways. Figure out how they can sell themselves.

Again, nothing new there.

I qualified that statement by saying that it was glaringly obvious to anyone who's been in marketing for any length of time.

Shaune, please don't assume that I'm attacking what you do or the way you do it. I'm sure you offer a valuable service to the copywriters in your market. But if you will position your stuff as "new" and not available anywhere else, then you must expect to draw fire from people who've been around the block a few times who know that it isn't essentially new. A slightly different spin maybe, a different approach maybe, but the underlying concepts and fundamentals are not new.

These concepts may well be new to your target market. My suggestion is that you don't use the absolute in describing them - they are only new or different to that market, not to everyone in the Universe. To suggest otherwise is either naive or arrogant.

Please try to understand the distinction I'm making.

Jane

Shaune,

You make a good observation which I would like to add another perspective to.

Do you know of the DISC model? (Michel talks about it in one of his articles, and Karon Thackston teaches it in her copywriting primer).

So, here's my synthesis of what you've said with the DISC model:

- Skimmers - people who are busy, who don't like reading, who make decisions quickly - those are your Decision makers, and possibly some of the Influentials
- Reading intellectually - your analysts (called Compliance in the Disc model) - scientists etc. (+ some Influentials ?)
- Reading emotionally - Steadiness in Disc, Supporters in other models. 40% of the population
- In the trance - ?????

And, of course, some people can't be hypnotised into a trance.

If you're selling something off the page, then getting people into a buying trance is probably a very good thing. For buying decisions that take more time (or even a decision by committee), efforting to get people into a trance probably won't work so well.

Jane

From your perspective, I do Jane.

Happy New Year.

Oh dear Shaune - are you bowing out again the pious way? Like you did when you didn't like the critique I did of your copy and your response was "I pray for your peace".

Hmmm. What's that all about? You can't make your case so you'll scramble for the higher moral ground?

OK. Well, I can't discuss things in an adult way with someone who retreats to that position and uses what I would call the court of last resort.

But wait! There's more ....

Before you go - just consider what I've said. Pretend someone else wrote it. Allow it to sink in and then ask yourself if you can up your game in any way.

Jane

Truly Jane, I am not bowing out in the manner you imply.

Unlike you, I do not have the time nor the will to debate.

I have made my point and just like in our previous conversation, that's all I need to do.

I don't have to have the last word or debate every point, trying feverishly to be right.

Believe it or not Jane, it's sincere, not an escape.

I wish you much Peace.

I wish you you a great New Year.

I don't want to endure long-winded debates or discussions.

Namaste,

Shaune

Extracted from http://www.dynamicresponsemarketing.com

I find this quite strange. I must have completely misunderstood your methods because I thought you were promoting ethical selling and creating connection.

But what you seem to be promoting is subtle manipulation as opposed to unsubtle manipulation. Well, I suppose that fits in with what you said to me about trying to find a manipulative hook for my copy.

I just don't inhabit that world. To my mind, if you create a good exchange of value (which doesn't necessarily mean the best or newest or whatever - just a fair exchange of money for services/products rendered), then where is the need to manipulate? Motivate - yes. Persuade - OK. Convince - hmmm. Manipulate - no way.

Manipulation comes from fear. The implication is that people won't naturally or inherently want what you offer without some level of arm-twisting or manipulation. In fact, some level of low self-esteem or fear is behind all manipulative selling - the underlying assumption is that people don't really, genuinely embrace what you do or don't want what you sell.

In my opinion, marketing works on 2 levels:

1) Create the most compelling reasons and/or story that attracts people to doing business with you - showcase yourself and your products/services in the best possible light

2) Get that message out to as many people as possible, and entice as many people as you can into your pipeline

3) Have positive intent and positive self-regard. Actually, this often overcomes any deficiencies in (1) and (2).

Did I say there are only 2 levels? No. 3 is probably more important and would explain why some promotions shouldn't work, but do anyway.

And so long as you draw people to you with interesting propositions and then give them value which exceeds the price they paid, you won't go far wrong.

More important than any of that, however, is having a business with high self-esteem. When you believe in yourself, and your business as a whole believes in itself, then you'll attract high paying clients to you without the need to manipulate or blag or bullsh1t.

Trying to manipulate people is really hard work. It requires all kinds of resources in terms of remembering what fibs you told, what promises you made and then getting beaten up by your clients when you don't keep those promises.

I know. I see the results of it every week with my boyfriend wrung out from having to meet impossible client demands because his boss keeps overselling and landing him in it.

Unnecessary. Unreal. Does it have to be that way? No! (Hint: if they filled their sales pipeline, they'd have a lot more choice over which projects they took on and could eliminate the vampire clients. As things stand, the business has really low self-esteem and they take whatever they can get (through manipulation) - which inevitably results in poor results for the client, and pain and poor profits for them.)

It's my belief that women get this more easily than men. (Ladies - are you nodding in agreement with me?) It seems to me that the new millenium belongs to realism and truth, and women are more sensitive to bs and manipulation. And given our increasing power in the workplace and over budgets, it seems entirely rational to me to give up the male-oriented, ineffective practices of the mid-20th Century in favour of looking at what works in the 21st Century.

Anyway Shaune, I think your copy is filled with non-sequiturs and that you preach contradictory concepts. I find time for this "debate" because writing out my ideas forces me to evolve to a new level.

Am I feverishly trying to prove a point? Well, no, my skin temperature is pretty cool at the moment and I'm not sweating. But I'll come out and say it - I think you overplay your hand. And given your obvious lack of confidence on the call last night - you might want to take that on board for some digestion.

Jane

Jane, I told myself I wasn't going to add to this already bloated thread...

but I cannot believe a fellow copywriter actually wrote...

I've heard clients say it (oh god have I heard clients say it). Designers say it.

But I've never heard a copywriter utter that phrase. I'm stunned.

But who knows perhaps you're right. Maybe I'll try it out this week and report back, though I'm not looking for extra work at the moment.

Moving on...

Well folks, looks like this call stirred up some genuine controversy.

Don't let Jane or Shaune tell you want to think: check it out for yourself at
http://www.fulltimecopywriters.com

Get on the list and you'll be notified when the recording becomes available.

As I keep saying Matt, I do not consider myself a copywriter. Remember also, that I'm a consultant working with UK consultants/professionals - a sceptical and conservative lot. They are also very busy.

There are probably certain types of "business" people who have time to conduct interviews. The proposition starts to fall apart somewhat when you factor in that time is money, and most consultants are short on time. Therefore, conducting interviews is essentially a cost to them, because it requires their time. It would be more to the point, I would have thought, to create a proposition that promised some tangible, and immediate benefit to their lives/businesses. Maybe that's an interview, but more likely it's some kind of mini-plan or 3 ideas that they can go away and use straight away.

I'm actually beginning to find it quite tedious when people who don't work with my market try to second guess it and imply that I don't know what I'm talking about. I am my market, and I've been working with my market specifically for 5 years, and more broadly for 18 years.

You are simply making an assumption, and assumptions are dangerous.

Please feel free to try it out and report back. I'm always happy to be proved wrong if someone has hard data. However, you must try it out on some UK management consultants and IT consultants.

I would be very surprised if it worked on significant numbers because:

a) "I can help you improve/increase profits" is a very hackneyed promise, and no one believes it anymore. In fact, all services must offer either increased profits, reduced costs, compliance with legislation, or increased opportunity, otherwise they have no value. But increased profits lacks specificity or emotional engagement, and seeing as everyone promises it, where is the differentiation?

b) If you ask them to interview you, you'll be wrong-footing them from the start. Because you are putting the onus on them to come up with the agenda for the meeting. My experience of consulting to people and assisting them is that they need to be lead, especially in areas they know little about. If you don't lead the meeting, you've lost control, and as I've read somewhere recently "he/she who asks the questions is the one in control".

Anyway, I don't want to dismiss the whole idea out of hand. It may have some merit, but it probably needs wording a different way. More importantly, it depends on what you're selling and to whom. And that is why so many of these conversations deteriorate into Camp A vs Camp B. Because someone, somewhere doesn't get the old axiom of "it just depends". There is no "one size fits all" in copy or marketing, and to think that there is, is well, only useful to the degree that the "rules" you use work in your markets and in your marketing.

Let me know I'm wrong if you have lots of experience working with UK consultants and professionals.

Jane

I just heard the edited recording. The echo is now gone from the beginning. Nice!

Jane there is absolutely unique content on that call! I admit your badgering, manipulation and arrogance had me wondering...

"How could I have been so off."

I was not!

I was thinking we'd have to re-do the recording for future use.

We will not need to.

Especially listen between minutes 21 and 25. You may need to listen twice to get it Jane but there is extraordinary value there. ABSOLUTELY this is unique material that you will not hear anywhere else.

Shaune,

You're not speaking to me, you're speaking to readers who might take an interest in your stuff.

So 10 out of 10 for trying to turn bad PR into good PR.

I will admit to badgering (which is probably an insult to badgers because it it's more like a terrier with a bone). I may admit to a modicum of arrogance, although I prefer to think of it as self-confident bolshiness. But I do not accept manipulation.

Anyway, good for you that you've managed to exorcise your demons.

All of which only goes to prove that when you said:

That you were being disengenuous.

Jane

PS Only 4 minutes of good material in a call that lasted nearly 90 mins?

PPS I don't usually take issue with teleclasses, and I've attended hundreds over the years.