This is not for everyone -- but might be for some of you...

I have a client and colleague who is a therapist, coach, author & speaker.

She's conducting her first "couples retreat" and needs copy written for it.

Her challenge is that she's invested (I know personally) a BOATLOAD of money getting her business off the ground, and investing another $3 - $10K +++ in copy up front for this retreat is unlrealistic.

But, she's willing to:

* Barter a full "couples" pass to this marriage enrichment retreat ($3997 per couple price point)
* Barter her performance coaching and counseling
* Barter her specialized counseling if you have "other topics" you need to address in your life
* Plus a 10% CASH royalty on the $3997 per couple tuition for the retreat (she expects to sell 10-30 couples/spots). So your upside would be $4000 to $12,000 in CASH royalties.

I can tell you this -- she's worked very successfully with some high powered entrepreneurs on performance improvement, and issues of stress/isolation, etc.

She some solid JV partners in place ... so good sales are highly likely.

Plus, she'll have other copywriting projects for her various products and programs at a later date. This is a good opportunity to get your foot in the door with a great up and coming, high profile expert.

Feel free to ask questions here in the forum and/or PM me

Dear JP:

"investing another $3 - $10K +++ in copy up front for this retreat is unlrealistic"

Why is it so?

Sincerely,

Read the preceding sentence.

Hmmm - this sounds like some fun actually. Although the couple's retreat ticket won't be of much use to me (no passport, no boyfriend, no luggage... ha ha!) I could certainly get some value out of the rest of what she's offering.

JP - Why don't you send me over a PM or an email and we'll talk.

- Cherilyn

Dear JP:

I did read the whole post.

Here's my philosophy when it comes to buying things, anything: If you want it and value it, you will pay for it. If you want it, but don't believe it's worth paying for, then you will try to barter.

Well, perhaps, I shouldn't have answered to your post at all...because you specified it wasn't going to be right for some of us.

But here's why I asked the first question. (Why is it so?)

Your client thought that some services were necessary to get her business off the ground. She paid for these services: "a boatload of money."

And now she has to make what is perhaps the most critical investment in her business, an investment that could pay her this year and for years to come, an investment on which she can calculate direct return, and this investment is "unrealistic."

So it is unrealistic to pay say $3000 to earn $119910?

So it is unrealistic to pay $1 to earn $39?

But it is realistic to pay a "boatload of money" on getting "business off the ground"?

Clients who want free or barter are not really serious about what they're asking for. How many times, has your client walked into a store, bought something, and said:"Well, guys, I don't want to pay you for your services, but in return, I will give you free motivation."

I am sure the store clerk would have said, "Madame, the best motivation you can give me is to pay me right here and right now."

or how many times, has your client walked into a store and said, "Well, I want to buy your stuff. But I don't want to pay you now since you have my promise that you'll get more business from me some time in the future."

Again, I am sure the clerk would have told her, "Madame, yes we'd like to have your business again, but in order for us to remain in business and do business with you some time in the future, I need you to pay NOW. If you're not pleased with our product, you can always return it for a full money back guarantee. With or without receipt, we will honor this full-money back guarantee, if you're not thrilled with our product. And by satisfying you today on your first purchase, we insure that we'll have your business some time in the near future."

Or better, how many times has your client worked with a client of hers based on , "Dear Madame, I understand that you do motivational consultations. I am here to have one. As you can see, I am a plumber. So I won't pay you now, but here's my business card and anytime you need plumbing services, you can call me. In other words: let exchange our services and forget that you need my money to pay for your office next month. Fair enough? Isn't it?"

I am sure that as a business person, your client would have responded: "My dear plumber. It is a nice proposition. But I don't run my business on bartering services. Our civilized society invented money so that we didn't have to barter anymore. How many of my hours are worth your hours? You see: one idea I can give you can make you successful for the rest of your life, transform your outlook on life, and make you the richest plumber in our city. How much money do you think one such idea would be worth? So pay me now, and when I need your services, I'll pay you, too."

JP: you and I as copywriters need to let our clients know that they can have the greatest offices in the world, the greatest-sounding degrees in the world, the greatest factory in the world, or produce the greatest widgets in the world, but until someone sells something for them, they're not in business. Copy brings business, and as such is the cheapest investment any SERIOUS business owner could make.

Sincerely,
P.S: My philosophy about buying: If you want it, and you think it's worth it, you'll immediately pay money for it. If you want it, and judge it not so important, then you will try to barter...or give a ton of excuses about why you want it for free. We don't help each other when we sell our services to each other for free. This is a capitalistic society and the circulation of money from one hand to the other makes this wonderful society works.

P.P.S: When Gene Schwartz had to charge Martin Edelston $2500 for an ad that took Gene less than 1 hour to write, did he make Martin a favor? Or did Martin try to offer stocks or whatnot to Eugene Schwartz for writing a successful piece of "salesmanship in print". Martin only had $3500 left and if the ad failed, he was going to be in serious trouble. And yet he TRUSTED Eugene Schwartz, paid the money and today you and I are in admiration of Boardroom. Copy is an investment. And I am sure that with you JP, her copy would be an investment.

Swans,

This would make an excellent thread topic. Easily debatable from both sides of the equation. In fact, I may split the thread if you guys wanna continue it.

I think you've made a valid arguement -- for certain situations.

I'm surprised that you've never seen neophyte marketers who spend their money getting their business going without regard for "sales copy." The need for sales copy, which seems like a no-brainer for us ... is totally foreign to most entrepreneurs ... even very successful ones.

I completely disagree with you on the point that people who "barter" don't value a service. That's asinine -- and naive.

Many smart -- very smart -- entrepreneurs barter all the time. It's one of the most powerful forms of currency in existence. From SOHO's to Fortune 100.

Don't buy the idea from me? Try Jay Abraham, Jay Conrad Levinson, Dan Kennedy ... others.

Besides ... I'm not suggesting a pure barter. Rather, a barter to cover the front end, then a very fair cash royalty on the backend.

There are scarce few copywriters on this board earning $8K to $12K per letter. Guarantee you that one!

Again -- this deal isn't for everyone.

I presented it here as a favor to her ... and we'll let the chips fall where they may.

I can tell you my PM inbox has been flooded, I've been called and emailed directly by people who know me personally.

This is a solid offer. And, for the right person -- it should be worthwhile.

In keeping with my desire to always serve the members of this board, I'll be happy to track the progress of this opportunity and share it back with the board.

It should serve as a lesson to many members of the board -- whether it works out to be ULTRA-lucrative or not.

Dear JP:

Well, as far as neophyte marketers are concerned, I think that they will have to learn it the hard way. Sorry to sound so brutal.

Well, I agree with you that I went a little bit on the extreme about exchanging services.

Perhaps, on a certain level, with a certain amount of mutual confidence, bartering is practical. And now that you said it, I thought that Eugene Schwartz used to exchange copywriting for access to mailing lists.

But here, I believe, there is a "I need what you have" and "you need what I have" factor. And I believe that what you have is truly worth what I have.

There is an 2x=2y, therefore x=y.

As far as future royalties are concerned, my experience has been that:"If the person didn't pay hard cash for the copy, he or she wouldn't try to get the most out of the copy"

A true story.

For instance, I wrote a piece of copy for a mortgage broker. He sent an email to his list. A customer says that the claims are great, but not believable. In my book, that person would buy with more proof. Otherwise, she wouldn't waste her time writing, reacting to the promo.

Well, I share my insights with the marketer and tell him to pursue this hot prospect and try to close over the phone or write a second email to her, that would eliminate her doubts and make her buy.

And guess what? The marketer did nothing.

Well, I said fine. (And the service was a minimum of $1000 to $2500)

But, here's something else.

The copy has brought another buyer. But this time, the buyer's first credit card is declined. I told the marketer to either send a personal email to this person and try to get the person to get another credit card or another means of payment.

The marketer doesn't follow up. A bunch of excuses, but no action. ( I think this time the lost sale is $2000)

And we're not done yet.

Now a few people do sign up. I told the marketer to put their subscription on automatic. He brings a bunch of excuses, and doesn't understand the law of mental inertia (human inertia, natural laziness). He doesn't put the buyers on automatic payment using Paypal.

Results: during the second month, he had to send an invoice to the people. And the people didn't answer his invoices. He couldn't pay me my royalties. A bunch of deadlines missed. And a great opportunity killed.

A great opportunity killed because the marketer didn't understand the power of copy.And I was a lousy marketer/copywriter for not having him pay upfront, and show him the value of what I am bringing to the table.

So when I hear:"I've got other projects cooking." I think BS.

When I hear, "Well, I could let you buy my service without paying me." I think sweet. But paying me upfront is sweeter."

And of course, JP I'd like you to keep us updated on this project. It would be great to see everything unfold beautifully, and see them live happily ever after.

But I know from my little experiences, that once the marketer didn't pay, your copy isn't worth much in his or her eyes.

And also in these cases, I have learned that the only way to make sure you get paid is to have control over the payment system. I didn't say to have access to it: but to literally control it.

Otherwise, you won't believe what weird stories neophyte marketers will come up with.

Sincerely,

I bartered for many years before I became successful.

Many free seminars. Many free consulting gigs. Many free copy jobs. I was actually a member of a barter network in my hometown 15-some years ago.

Yup! Me too... (not for copy like you -- but other things)

And, even these days on occasion I'll run across someone who can't afford my total fee in cash. If the "vibes are good" -- and I think they'd make an ideal client, I'll ask, "What do you have that's valuable, that you'd be willing to part with?"

Last year I had someone who wanted coaching and had very little to offer as pmt -- except a GIA and EGL certified diamond worth $26,000. D color ... IF Internally Flawless. Beautiful stone. Completely PERFECT.

I've bartered for limo rides, meeting rooms, hotels, printing, phone systems, on and on and on. And like you I've been a member of an international barter exchange.

Seems like I remember reading in "Getting everything..." that Jay Abraham traded for (among many other things) a Corvette.

Barter can be good in the right situations. You can't use it to pay the utility company -- but it can be a cash preserver and lifestyle booster.