Marcia Yudkin wrote: "Beyond that, it bothers me when people bend the meanings of words in deceptive ways (perhaps deceiving themselves, too..." in reference to items called "gifts".

I'm starting this thread so as not to sidetrack that thread. Marcia, as you can see, speaks of bending words in deceptive ways.

What about bending words in ways that accurately convey an emotional meaning?

Hmn. Now, I get away with a lot. Here's an example. If I were selling the product, Personal Power II put out by Anthony Robbins, my language would be extreme because I believe in the product. "Extreme" meaning hyperbole filled and emotion infused.

I suppose I could tell you of the psychodynamic techniques involved, explain their history, detail something about how they work, or I can transfer what I know is the truth on an emotional level - these techniques will change your life for the better beyond anything you currently imagine. Ken Calhoun knows what I'm talking about.

I could do that in good concience even though I know that only a few people who buy will ever take the wrapper off the package. (There's a statistic somewhere that states the % of people who don't open self-help material is in the high 90's).

So, am I bending the meaning of words? Yes, I say. To accurately convey my emotional message - these CD's will save your life if you let them. They'll help you straighten out any problems life throws your way and you can go beyond that to live a life that up 'till now, you've only dreamed of.


Peter Stone

Peter,

Could you give a couple of specific examples? Then we have some context for this discussion - because I think that the setting, the audience and so on partly determine what is appropriate and how the reader would likely take it. In addition, certain kinds of claims (particularly health claims) require much more vigilance and care on the part of the writer and the company.

I'll give an example from my own web site. I have a training program that teaches people to become a marketing consultant (in a sense a copywriter) in 10 weeks. Since I only accept candidates who already have good writing skills, not to mention the demonstrably huge learning leaps people have in the program) I feel comfortable with the claim that they really can learn those skills in 10 weeks. I have testimonials attesting to that, too. However, the headline on one of my pages describing this program goes:

Learn How to Earn $100/Hour With Your Writing Skills
http://www.yudkin.com/$100hour.htm (that's a page oriented to writers)

Another headline for the same program goes:

Become a Marketing Consultant and Earn $75-$150/Hour!
http://www.yudkin.com/become.htm (that's a page for folks interested in marketing)

Now I certainly have graduates who are making $100 an hour and up with the skills they learned from me, but they are not the norm. The norm is people who have finished the course and then half-heartedly tried to get their consulting practice up and running or simply went on to something else. Do you think it would be smart for me to have some kind of disclaimer that I can't absolutely promise these results, that while I make sure they finish with a marketing plan and great marketing materials, their progress depends a lot on their drive and persistence? Or do you think it would be better for me to rustle up one or two more testimonials from graduates who were making the amounts in my headline? (I have two such quotes at present.)

I hope my comments don't bend the thread away from Peter's questions again, but I really do think that different examples may call for different answers. Feel free to give your own examples, too.

Marcia Yudkin

Great response, Marcia.

I think what you're asking about, the 'milage may vary' type of disclaimer can be found under "typicality of claim" if you want to research the legal aspect of the question.

"This will change your life..." and the rest was intended to be an example of bending words with unqualified, emotional statements, claims and promises. A broad example intended to start or continue a discussion rather than take a strong position and sound like I'm inviting arguement.

Your example may be more specific and clear, so we can go with that. I'm much more interested in what's actually on your mind - what happens in the day to day lives of people, than some simplistic dogma.

Typically, we learn to think about morality as children and then attempt to carry those definitions into adulthood without examination. (A generalization about human nature). We get into trouble when we try to apply those simplistic views to the complexities of reality.

So, my point is no point. My point is that I see evidence all over the Web indicating that discussions about morals, values and ethics are in order. I'm not sure how to start that discussion, so this is my attempt, as clumsy as it is.

So, how can you possibly make those claims and promises and sleep at night?


Peter Stone

Interesting discussion.

Yes, how does one talk about morals without sounding like some sort of misplaced soapbox preacher?

The only thing that comes to me is transparency, and sincerity... two simple words that go a LONG ways. You know it when you see it (most of the time).

One example that comes to mind is Marlon Sanders, he writes some very emotional copy, but you know what, he gets away with it because he is very upfront and sincere. I know his style turns a lot of folks off - but this isn't the issue here.

He openly states that he doesn't know you, therefore can't promise anything about your future earnings. He openly says that he is "bribing" you to buy his product - not with "gifts", but "bribes"! He offers a gazillion testimonials, and hits hard with bullets that offer benefits.

The point here is that he is frank and upfront in his emotional copy. I don't choose to write like he does, but I love his transparency, and enjoy reading his copy - in a weird way it is refreshing.

The issue here isn't emotional copy in my opinion, but rather, real transparency and sincerity.

For goodness sakes, even the Saints that lay down roadmaps for all of us to follow to gain illumination have one in a million takers that actually succeed in following their PROVEN techniques. Granted, illumination is a challenging task ... but it would be ridiculous for us as writers to imply that EVERYONE will succeed if they apply or use our given service/product that we are pitching.

I agree with Peter, anyone who implies this is treading moral thin ice.

Tim

Hi Tim,

It's good to see you, again.

Marlon Sanders - The disneyland of copywriting. I love the guy's work.

Hmn. "Moral thin ice". What process do you use to arrive at thin ice or through the ice. (Or take the discussion in any direction you like).

Do you see anything wrong with the claim: "If you follow the techniques Tony Robbins teaches, your life will change for the better"?


Peter Stone

Hi Peter,

It's 4 in the morning here in Italy - I can't sleep as I am still on California time, I just got back from visiting my family over there. Also the reason why you haven't seen me around for a while - I didn't have internet access. I really appreciate the fact that you noticed I haven't been posting recently...

Man, I fell right into your philosophical trap! Hook, line, and sinker!

Now you are asking me to walk the razor's edge...

Well, here's my $0.02 for what it's worth...

The self-help phrase mentioned above isn't necessarily wrong, it has to be viewed in its whole context. I am not familiar enough with Tony Robbin's whole process to give any judgement. It's impossible to be black and white with such an argument, there are an infinite number of gray zones in between.

Going back to Marlon, he backs up his strong claims and product with a "triple your money back guarantee" - he makes it real clear that if it falls short (after you give it an honest go) - you will get your money back and more. This should satisfy even the most brain dead potential customer, and eliminate even the strictest self righteous moral complainers. I love how he does that. What is there to complain about? He turns it into a complete no brainer.

I think the gray zones start turning darker shades when innocence is preyed upon by the use of very well thought out psychological manueverings and almost cultish brainwashing kind of techniques. The use of hierarchy plays strong in this, and so does guilt trips - this is subtle, and not easy for me to explain in a post on a forum, but I know it when I see it.

I don't think it is possible to give a straight answer to your question, but I do feel that such phrases should be dealt with caution.

What would be your reaction to such a phrase:
" Come pray with us at XYZ Church... It will change your life for the better! Here's a list of our testimonials..."

Now, if you were open minded enough not to judge it on face value, and actually give it a go, then you would have a much better idea as to what this particular church was all about. If you dive in head first without testing the waters, your life could very well change, but who's guaranteeing that it will be for the better?

Touchy subject, isn't it?

Tim

Wow! Great post.

I'm accustomed to hearing "That's wrong" or "That's right" - black and white judgements that reflect little resiliance of a spiritual self. It's easy to say that telling a lie is immoral, unethical, irresponsible, anti-social... That's what I was told.

That doesn't take into account complex situations. You know, the ones that leave you thinking "How the heck do I think about this one?"

Tim wrote:
What would be your reaction to such a phrase:
" Come pray with us at XYZ Church... It will change your life for the better! Here's a list of our testimonials..."

Well, I think my observation would be the message to market mis-match.

Here's one of my tests on this sort of thing. If I'm evangelizing about a product because I have conviction for the consumer's happiness or betterment, great. If I'm writing strictly to get money, think. It's likely that I would go from there to spend more time with the product and try to get convicted. Another sign is if I'm writing exclusively to the greed or fear buttons. Don't get me wrong. I get pretty wild in my copy and hit fear and greed pretty darned hard, sometimes. If that's all that occurs to me, something's up. It may be a sign of burn out or something like that. But it may be a moral dilema.

Are you asleep, yet?


Peter Stone

LOL!

You know, doesn't nearly everything in life fall into this category?

I keep coming across marketing arguments that leave me scratching my head thinking, geeze - there is NO right answer, and we are NEVER going to please everyone.

Maybe that's why I love testing and tracking so much - it gives me an empirical reference point that cuts through the foggy opinions (within what I feel good about as moral limits).

I keep seeing hypocritical positions and attitudes whenever the word "marketing" is mentioned - the word definitely pushes weird buttons for a lot of folks... even amongst fellow marketers! To a degree this is understandable because there are A LOT of very aggressive scoundrels that use some shady tactics in the marketing world - I guess we all have our own "gray zone" tolerance levels regarding what constitutes acceptable moral marketing behaviour, some are triggered sooner than others, and we do have to draw a line somewhere, at least for ourselves. I just think that too many draw lines without really reflecting, as a more reflex kind of response.

Didn't you already say this though?

God forbid if someone (like the government) tries to come out with the "marketing moral handbook" as a dogma for all to follow. I think some restrictions do need to be made, but forcing "gray zone" issues into a black or white pair of underwear will only create hemorrhoids.

No easy answer here - just a call to what you suggested as "spiritual resiliancy" and a good sound dose of honest reflection. The more individuals examine themselves, the less problems all the rest of us and society will probably have.

Your own example of how you handle these kinds of reflection issues is excellent.

Tim

"...The squirrel told the fox, "You should eat more nuts, then you'd be able to climb trees better, and you'd reach those grapes in no time. More nuts, that's the secret..."


Peter Stone

Oh no, now you're talking in parables... watch out, the last guy who did that wasn't treated too kindly...

Plus, I don't think I have the spiritual depth to understand what you really mean - except that I relate to being a "nut".

Tim