Yes and no.

Yes, let's get practical and let's just get on with it.

No, writing 80 million word essays on forums doesn't pay the bills, but it's also good writing practice. What you may not factor in, Alan, is that some of us type at 80 wpm so the 80 million word essays that you perhaps imagine take hours only actually take minutes.

In any event, all writing is good practice. If nothing else, writing on forums helps people to crystallise and clarify their ideas and direction.

I think it's also worth noting that there seems to be two approaches to copywriting, and neither one is necessarily more valid than the other. Some people believe that you have to be good at sales to be a good copywriter, and some people believe that you have to be good at writing to be a good copywriter. They are probably both right and ultimately it just depends on the product and audience as to which style is going to do better in the end. The point is not to get too attached to any particular mode of thinking or "rules" about any of it.

Also, I reserve the right to feel OK about being slightly educated. Being educated is not a sin, foible or disadvantage (except where it makes you stuffy and up yersen - not my case I don't think). It's OK to be educated and it's OK to not be educated. Each to their own.

There's no point in practicising writing copy if you don't understand the structure, the research process or the reasons why copy is the way it is. Heaven forbid that anyone would ever be as theoretical or academic as me (because that would be a disaster, wouldn't it). But I can't see the value in practicing writing copy if you don't understand the basic building blocks.

Oh yeah, and I say this from experience. I tried learning copy from emulation and not understanding first principles - complete disaster.

Jane

Hi Jane,

I do believe that both of these notions are true - to an extent. Let's define "good at sales". Does that mean being able to stand face-to-face with an ornery, penny-pinching customer at a car dealership and send them home in a brand-new Cadillac? Does that mean you're fast-talking, quick-thinking, and able to deliver a breathless sales pitch that will leave a room of businessmen begging for more?

If that's what being good at sales means, then I am not good at sales. Nor will I ever be. When I worked as a cashier at a department store as a teen, we were pushed and pressured to get customers to open up charge accounts. In 3 years, I succeeded in bringing exactly one charge account to the table. Why? Because when the customer said "No, thank you.", I said "No problem." and that was that. I am not a good face-to-face sales person because I am uncomfortable looking people in the eye and trying to manipulate or push them. In truth, I am an introvert.

Does that mean I can't write a good sales letter? Hell no. When it's just me and my laptop, I can be anybody I want to be. I can become that "don't-take-no-for-an-answer" salesperson and find my audience's hot buttons - and push them. Because I've been studying this medium, I'm learning how to structure a message in just the right way. Sales is more than just being charismatic and in-your-face ... it's knowing the psychology behind consumerism: why consumers buy, what gets them excited, what draws them into the message and gives them that feeling that you're on their level, know what they need, and can deliver on your promises. If you don't know jack about psychology and human behavior, all of the schmoozing in the world isn't going to get you very far.

No one will ever be able to convince me that to be a great copywriter - even writing sales-oriented material - you don't have to be able to write. I absolutely, unequivocally do not believe that. I have seen the difference between stilted, colorless sales letters and letters that have wonderful rhythm; carrying the reader down the page like water flowing through a stream.

Yes, rhythm. All good writing must have it. If you come upon a really excellent piece of work, you can almost hear the music in it.

Does one have to be James Joyce to be a copywriter? Well of course not. But you should know - or learn - how to craft your message in a way that it provides the maximum impact. You should know how to orchestrate rhythm in your piece and how to pick just the right words and phrases to make it 'pop'.

And no, I am not saying that the grammar always needs to be proper; that's not my point. I am simply saying that your sales letter, web copy, direct mail piece, etc. has to FLOW and it has to resonate with the reader. If it's choppy and forced and lifeless, chances are you'll lose the reader and thus lose the sale.

I believe that if you know how to write well, it will be an asset to you when you write copy. I also believe that you need to be "in-tune" with the world around you, because it changes rapidly. While certain core "rules" of selling might retain their effectiveness over the years, your audiences will change, and tactics that worked 25 years ago just might not have the same impact today.

And Jane, you're right - it ultimately depends on the product or services, and the audience at the other end. Writing a sales letter for a product which enhances your golf game is obviously a very different animal than writing web copy for a healthcare site.

I just feel that if you (the general "you", not you specifically) choose to take on both types of projects in your career, you must be flexible in your viewpoints. Although certain theories and methods might work well in a variety of mediums, to restrict yourself to one or the other school of thought, in my opinion, will just do you a disservice in the end.

(This refers to direct response copywriting.)

Being good at sales? What does good at "sales" mean? That you have to be good in the profession or skill of selling? Not necessarily.

Sales means many things, including persuasion (like politics), influence (like journalists), capable of winning arguments (like lawyers), understand human behavior/psychology (like marketers or even doctors), convincing others to subscribe to a point a view (like proselytizers or church leaders), etc.

I've known superb copywriters in every one of those former careers. Many of them on this board.

Well, I'm not sure whether that is just poor languaging on my part or whether it's because I don't understand what it means either! But then again, it's not my point of view - I was attempting to paraphrase what has been said on this forum over and over - that one needs a background in sales to be a successful copywriter. It may be useful, if only because you understand how a pitch is put together and have a visceral feel for what moves people along your "greased chute" - but then again, I'm sure this can be learned in terms of how copy is structured.

The point is that I believe the art of writing copy can be approached from a number of angles and backgrounds.

Jane

Jane,

My post was actually meant to agree with yours and back yours up.

I'M THINKING

OK I'M THOUGHT

DISAGREE!
GOOD STUFF!

YAHOO!


Love it!

You'll find my definition in goal-related numbers. If my client's goal is customer retention over sales, there's no reason not to relate copy to customer retention, using numbers. Likewise with other copy, or advertising goals.

But you and everyone else are entitled to your beliefs and opinions and preferences.

Speaking of psychology and human behavior, that's exactly where "fast-talking and breathless" copy you refer to in such disdainful terms come from.

If I were credentialed as a psychotherapist, hey...wait a minute...I am credentialed as a psychotherapist, and I'm suggesting those references - "schmoozing" as opposed to "human psychology" - relate a dislike of sales in general. That's common.

I couldn't agree more, except there is no "type" of project, in my book. Only a market and the message they are sensitive to hearing today. For instance...

I'm working on a biz op project, due to appear in a format where the market has been beaten by 'loud' messages for some time. So, I'm writing it in a subdued voice. Conversely...

I just returned from a Dan Kennedy seminar where I met several financial advisors. According to the one I spoke with most and in depth, subdued messages don't work. He prefers that they do, but they don't when you examine the numbers, according to him.

So, you can dignify one style of writing over another by relating the use of one style to car sales and customers with pronounced brow lines, but that's no reason at all for me to use, or not use it. That's where the numbers come into play. What is the market actually responding to?

Personally, I don't mind anyone thinking whatever they want to think. "Cave drawings sell more than self-indulgent, cop-out copy", is fine with me.

I just don't care for the positioning of one form of copy as 'better' than the other, based on how civilized it sounds or the idea that decorum sells to educated individuals over copy that doesn't use decorum.

Keep in mind, I write in both gutsy and self-indulgent styles, so I'm not invested in one being viewed as superior over the other. I'm simply interested in what works, according to the numbers.

Well said.

Peter

Alan,

Love the pic of you all squiffy eyed and intellectual! Do you have experience in the performing arts? (And don't say you don't, cos it's obvious you do!)

Maybe that is another potential route in for copywriters - those with experiences in writing and performing dramatic pieces. After all, copy is about creating drama and sales is about showmanship - ask Michael Winner or Al Fayed!

Well done mi dear!

Jane

BANG-ON-TARGET

An Artist Formerly Known As Alan