Here's an interesting study on long scrolling web pages by the folks at User Interface Engineering. They found that people prefer longer scrolling copy over short, multiple pages. I particularly like these 3 passages:

1. "Our research shows that fewer, longer pages may be the best approach for users. In the trade-off between hiding content below the fold or spreading it across several pages, users have greater success when the content is on a single page."

2. "Increasing the levels of information — similar to adding sections to an outline — also seemed to help users."

3. "Users may tell us they hate scrolling, but their actions show something else. Most users readily scrolled through pages, usually without comment."

Read the results of the study at http://world.std.com/~uieweb/scrollin.htm

With websites of owners who say, "people never read long copy," I usually check out the site to see if they do have long copy or not.

In many cases, they do have a lot of copy. It's simply scattered across multiple pages. So I usually tell them that what they often mean is long SCROLLING copy.

Aside from the survey listed earlier, long scrolling copy is better than multiple pages for a niche product, a single sales pitch or a single product-focused "mini-site," based on split-tests I've done.

My theory to why this is, is this: clicking to another page causes what psychologists call "cognitive dissonance." Also known as "buyer's remorse" or simply having second thoughts.

The idea is that, by clicking to another page while one is engaged in the reading process forces readers to think twice, as it causes a brief, mental dissassociation (or better yet, distraction), which interrupts the flow, intensity and momentum of the sales pitch.

Plus, by clicking links to pages THEY want, they get piecemeal information based on their own thought process, NOT the intended flow of the copywriter. (On top of that, people scan more with multiple pages than they do with long copy.)

People keep saying, "Nobody is going to read (or scoll) through all that copy." Or they tell me the fact that they've got proof, with surveys and polls and focus groups and studies and so on, often conducted among their clients, indicating that people don't read or like long copy.

(I keep telling them that people vote with their wallets, not with their opinions. Plus, with multiple pages/links, I also say that, give people too many choices and they won't make one -- or the one you want them to make.)

But the web usability study mentioned above proves that people prefer longer copy over multiple pages.

Hi Michel,

Thanks for the research data - I just saw it from your post on the Warriors forum as well, and I also appreciated your link to Dan Kennedy's interview - great stuff! Much appreciated http://dankennedy.com/paulson.html

It's incredible, another battle raging on with Long vs. Short copy over there! http://www.warriorforum.com/forum/to...TOPIC_ID=11389

I've lost count how many times I've seen this argument come up even in the last year. The funny thing is, it ALWAYS finishes the same:

• Long copy works (if it isn't boring)
  Test
  Test
  Test

There where a couple of new twists this time around which were interesting for me:

Single long scrolling pages seem to work better than link oriented sales pages. I have always believed this - but it was interesting to see some actual results.

And the idea that surveys and opinions can be harmful. I like what Allen Says said (whoa potential tongue twister) - anyway, he said:

"I shudder to think of the number of people who have changed their pages on an opinion of another before even testing it in the marketplace and letting the customer decide.

I'm confident million dollar ideas have been lost that way."

Powerful thought.

Tim

Hi guys,

Mike, with all respect, my sense is this point made
by many copywriters contains a logic flaw.

You seem to be assuming that because the reader made
the purchase they are voting in favor of long copy,
and the direct response style in general.

Direct response copy is _everywhere_ and a core component of
this style of writing involves not giving the reader a
choice of presentation. As you said:

So, if I want to buy a Net business ebook, how am I to get
the book without "voting" for the direct response copy
style? By design the two are inseperable, if I want one I
have to take the other.

How do you know which purchases were made because of direct
response copy, and which were made _in spite of_ direct
response copy?

Phil

Phil,

You use the term "direct response copy" in a way that infers it is synonymous with "long copy".

I think this a false distinction. Long copy may not be direct response, and direct response copy may not be long.

Phil and Michel,

My personal feeling is that everyone is addicted to their own modality, not willing to see that shorter or longer copy might be equally efficacious, and are polarising themselves into "camps" (again).

People who write hypey, long copy to sell off the page seem to be addicted to hypey long copy, regardless of research and "opinon" that suggests that other styles might also work. They also insist that anything that isn't long copy is "institutional".

But all of these distinctions are erroneous in my humble opinion.

Surely all that matters at the end of the day is who the target market is, whether it's a one stage or two/three stage selling process, what response is required and how much explanation/persuasion is required in order to get that response.

For example, I have given much thought to how to turn my website into a selling tool. I probably cannot sell my services off the page (there are too many variables to discuss), so what is the next best proposition? Rather than go for a "contact me to find out more" proposition, I have decided to go for a "get my free report and sign up to my ezine" proposition. That is a one step in terms of selling them my free report/ezine and probably two or three step in terms of selling them any actual services.

In order to do this I need direct response copy. But I don't feel I need long direct response copy. This is because the proposition is fairly simple, and in my line of business, I need to remain credible or create credibility, so I don't want to be hitting them with exaggerated descriptions of results or endless testimonials.

What are the variables in my decision? Target market, credibility, proposition, one step/ two step/ three step etc., how much information is required for them to make a decision or to persuade them.

Therefore, in making generalisations about long copy vs short copy we might be comparing apples with pears. What are you selling, to whom are you selling it and how is it sold?

If you are selling information products off the page, then maybe you do need long, hypey copy. You absolutely have to get them to act now, because otherwise they'll surf off never to return. And if your target market are "idiots" then the more hype, the better. (the idiots comment was made by someone else a few days ago - can't remember who).

Let's face it, most of the copy that we are discussing is for would-be internet entrepreneurs. Are they idiots? Well, quite frankly, most of them probably are. And if they're not idiots, they're probably desperate in some way - desperately seeking a way out of 9-5 hum-drum 40x40x40. Clearly, therefore, the selling approach to people in this mindset, is going to be quite different to that required to sell to informed, successful business owners (my target market).

Horses for courses. We can all learn from each other about what works in one market and what works in another.

Michel is right to point out what works in terms of wallets being opened and credit cards being used.

However, what no one seems to have quite caught on to here is that all the women in that thread said they hated the long copy. Maybe women don't like long copy and men do? Did any of you think of that? In fact, are any of you actually writing with women in mind? If you're not, then you're probably missing a trick.

My $0.02

Phil,

With all due respect to you as well, you're ignoring a key point, one I've said repeatedly...

... It all comes down to testing.

What you say, what I say and even what our clients/prospects say are totally irrelevant. What people say and what they do are two separate things. Testing is what tells us what people want.

You said: "Direct response copy is _everywhere_ and a core component of this style of writing involves not giving the reader a choice of presentation." Not so. Testing gives them that choice.

But I know what you're going to say, and I believe it's the point you're trying to make: "What if a test is limited and the short version alternative is not presented?"

My short answer is this:

A lot of people rely on other people's tests, such as the study I mentioned earlier. "Why create mediocrity when you can copy genius?"

Plus, if you give them too many choices (such as multiple links to multiple pages): 1) they may not make one or 2) they may make a bad one that may not be in their best interest due to the lack of information. (And that includes NOT going ahead and buying.)

If you leave the sales presentation at the mercy of the prospect, they will almost always want to know 1) the price, 2) the price, 3) and the price.

Similarly, by clicking links to pages THEY want, then you've placed your sales pitch at the mercy of the reader. Flow is important, since some information is best known before others.

But given the choice, the most sought after page will likely be the pricing page.

Same with long copy. People who scroll down long copy looking for the price (at least with long copy, you can stop their scanning process such as with the use of headlines, bullets, headers, etc, where with multiple pages, you can't).

With multiple pages, they may miss or ignore important links (which may contain not only critical sales information but also the one page, or the one piece of information, that may give them they want to know).

They gather piecemeal information based on their own thought process, NOT the intended flow of the copywriter. Now, you might say that's prohibitive since it stops them from making a choice.

No. It only stops them from getting the information they need to make one.

People refer to things they know. They feel more comfortable with things they know. They are more open with people they know. And they like peple who are like them.

That's why, when given the choice, the first people want to know is price because money is a common currency. They fall back on something they already know and are familiar with.

But price is misleading.

It's like the weather. 72 degrees is 72 degrees. To a Canadian like meself, it's darn hot. But to a person in South America, it's winter.

Or take this example. When you meet someone for the first time, the weather will likely be a topic of discussion. It's often the first thing people talk about when meeting someone they don't know. Why? Because temperature is a common currency to which everyone associates.

Value can be established through 1) information or 2) reputation. The latter involves branding, but the former uses selling. Or in this case, copy.

Price is an arbitrary figure. Knowing the price alone, everything is too pricey. People hate parting with their money because money represents security -- a foundational Maslow motive.

So, when breaking the flow of a sales presentation -- or by offering them piecemeal information -- there's no value buildup. They won't fully appreciate the value behind the price.

Bottom line is this. As John Forde once said about long copy, "This a long-standing debate with an outrageously simple answer: Test it."

Hi guys,

You did notice the title of the thread at the Warrior forum?... "Long sales letters are DEAD..." - excellent bit of marketing to get a thread going! But again, a blanket statement being thrown over the vast marketing world.

Then about 50 people respond to the argument - some agreeing, some disagreeing. I swear I have seen this argument at least 10 times with 20 responses or more each time on different forums during the year.

One common point that keeps coming up - and this has nothing to do with Internet Marketing, is that those with the most experience keep saying:

TEST for goodness sakes - but TEST your target market NOT yourself, your colleagues, or forums (especially internet marketers) - TEST your approach on your BUYING market. Opinions are useless till proven otherwise.

Then A LOT of these very experienced individuals go on to say that again and again, Long Copy generally pulls better.

This has NOTHING to do with opinions, or "camps". This has nothing to do with the "internet marketing" scene.

Jane, I think you are analyzing too much - got an idea? TEST IT. I am certainly not going to argue against your approach - from the "camp" of Long Copy.

Phil,

A true marketer is also a scientist - if a scientist has a theory, they better darn well prove it before presenting it to their colleagues before claiming it's a law. I saw Michel's post as a fellow scientist who was sharing some findings - you have the opportunity to test it yourself. Who knows, you may be tapping into a new wave of behavior with your ideas and theories, test them out. We would be interested in your FINDINGS.

And just like in science, I think it is foolish to ignore all the FINDINGS of the past marketers - especially the most successful folks. I can understand that they are not approaches that resonate with you, but this is irrelevant towards this science.

If you have an idea - TEST IT!

Again, let me quote Allen Says:

"I shudder to think of the number of people who have changed their pages on an opinion of another before even testing it in the marketplace and letting the customer decide.

I'm confident million dollar ideas have been lost that way."

Got a million dollar idea? Go for it! But, uh, .... just remember to report back if you find it.

Tim

Michel - our posts must've crossed - didn't see yours till just now. My post sounds redundant now, but I'll leave it anyway, perhaps there are some complimentary points.

Tim

Timothy,

How patronising to delineate everything I said down to:
"Jane, I think you are analyzing too much - got an idea? TEST IT. I am certainly not going to argue against your approach - from the "camp" of Long Copy. "

You didn't bother to argue against anything I said because you simply ignored and belittled it by saying I was analysing too much.

I personally thought I made some very good points and I'm amazed that you have brushed them aside in this manner.

You, aswell as everyone else here, have their own opinions which you express with great regularity. Have you, yourself "tested" the validity of every single opinion that you hold? Somehow, I doubt it.

So please don't imply that my ideas are worthless because I haven't shown you my test data.

I thought this was a discussion forum, not a statistical data centre.

If nothing else, you should have been bright enough to pick up the consensus from the women on the other forum's thread. Or .... are you ....

dare I even speak it's name?

Yours, the PAID UP MEMBER of this discussion forum,

Jane

Jane,

I apologize for sounding like I brushed you off - didn't mean to.

I just felt like the whole point was missed - "camps" aren't being delineated here, I am not a "camp" kind of person, nor do I believe is Michel, or any other copywriter here.

And, associating Long Copy with "hype" is also a blanket statement, sometimes it can be hypey - othertimes not, but again, this too is irrelevant.

My "opinions" are also irrelevant - I am the first to admit this regarding copy. Heck, I would prefer to write short copy if I could find a way to make it pull as good as my long copy - really. Why should I force it though? Just because I prefer?

I honestly don't know, because I don't remember all of my opinions - but we do test extensively, probably more than the vast majority of other internet marketers. But even if I had tested everything - this too could be fairly irrelevant for your specific circumstances.

... a chauvinistic ****head? Sorry, didn't mean to push your buttons Jane. I am having a very bad moment here in Italy (don't want to bore you with the details), and I didn't dedicate the time necessary to write a post that was more in my style of being less offensive... this one slipped. I really didn't mean to insult your intelligence, and I do listen to what you have to say.

I guess I have seen SO MANY posts that continue the debate - without listening to what is the obviously ONLY response - got an idea, test it. I just feel like we continue to beat a dead dog. It isn't about opinions - the overwhelming data is indicating (for now) that long copy beats short copy in the vast majority of split tests.

And as Michel said, scrolling copy beats linking pages in the vast majority of split tests... again, why force our preferences? Or even, why listen to our girlfriends, boyfriends, colleagues, even teachers, when they are NOT our target market? And to take it one last step, why listen to our target market? We need to watch what they DO. People say A LOT of stuff, then do something completely different ALL THE TIME. This is the human reality, why, I don't know, but we need to be aware of this if we want to sell successfully. I am not just parroting here, I have seen it myself many, many times.

Short copy is also working for many - God bless them!

Everyone... men, women, uncles, grandmas, has opinions on selling approaches. I give no more importance to one type of voice over another. I certainly wasn't ignoring the womens' posts more than I was the mens'.

Jonathan Mizel made a post that was really gold on the Warrior forum, I will try to sum it up:

-----
The only opinion you should listen to while testing your copy, is that of your BUYING TARGET MARKET, and what they actually DO - nothing else matters, and can actually be harmful to your approach.
-----

This is an empowering statement to ALL of us with opinions and theories, to go on out there and give them an honest go - be it short copy, long copy, link oriented copy, scrolling copy, women oriented copy, etc. etc.

You might be the holder of the next greatest copy approach to hit the scene - why not? You don't need to sell me though, just your clients.

I sincerely wish you success.

Tim