I just read Jason Moffatt's post that said "When you make a half a mil you can call yourself a guru".

It just sparked a thought, and that is, how much money in your mind does someone have to make before you consider them a "guru". Or, at the very least "very successful"?

I personally think if an individual can start a business from scratch and build it to AT LEAST $500,000 gross per year that's pretty impressive. So, I agree with Jason. No, I'm not talking about the dude who comes out with "100 Ways To Watch Your Adsense Earnings Skyrocket" and all the "gurus" get together in a huge circle jerk and sees who can make the most in affiliate commisions. Then, next week, it's something different.

I'm talking about a REAL business. A REAL internet presence. All done from hard work, studying, learning marketing, etc.

$500k is not a guru in my eyes. I'm talking Net here too.

I look up to the guys who can, from scratch, build a multi-million dollar empire (NET) or project in 2-3 years time...

OR

A very specialized niche expert who has phenomenal results in what he teaches. I learn from those guys too (For instance, I'm not sure if Perry Marshall meets my profit standards, but I'd pick him to do my Adwords any day of the week)

I don't think "net" on its own is a good indicator for several reasons.

#1 Many people lie about their sales and net incomes. Yeah, that might be hard to believe but it's true.

#2 Some folks like Gary Halbert, who I consider to be a copywriting guru doesn't seem to be interested in working all hours every single day to accumulate large wealth. Not that he doesn't do well financially but he seems like a guy that works hard when he needs the money-- if he doesn't need the money then he coasts. I wouldn't "not" call him a guru-- would you? There are a lot of folks like that. Or they live in areas that aren't as expensive as say NYC or Miami or San Francisco so to them earning even a couple hundred grand a year sets them up in a pretty elite lifestyle. Denny Hatch is a "guru" in my opinion and while I'm sure he's consistently made a 6 digit salary I doubt he's ever made $300,000 or $500,000 a year.

#3 Some guru's elect to keep re-investing profits back into their company and don't take them out as "wages" so their "pay" won't appear large. Are they no-less a guru? This is especially the case with many off-line guru's.

#4 Some niches are fairly small and earning a 1/2 million dollar a year salary just isn't feasible. But these people are guru's none-the-less in my eyes.

I can tell a "guru" from a "poser" pretty quickly. And I don't need to look at their tax return either.

If you ask me, $$ is the wrong measurement.

The question is, does the person have something to teach (in depth) that I want to learn?

I should have pre-qualed the question. I know there's a lot more to guage than ONLY money. But this specific topic we're just talking about that.

Yes, you have to look at people hearts, the way they do biz, longevity, and a ton of other things, I know this. But for right now, I'm just talking money.

I figured a half million "Profits" in a year was enough
to say you were killing it.

And if your doing that kind of income, I'd say you are
doing well enough to call yourself anything you want.

So that's what I'm shooting for next year. Half a mil.

That's my goal.

Then I'll be able to call myself "The Socal Fooru" (and "TM" that sh#@).

In the end, it's just a friggen word.

It's nothing different then when me and Harlan were argueing
about the word "Master".

We are all copywriters and it's our jobs to twist and bend
words to make them sound all pretty so people can fork
over their credit cards.

In real life, away from the internet, all my guru's have been
fairly broke dudes with some righteous advice.

Anyways, it's just a word.

Use it how you see fit is my theory.

However use it wisely as to not look like a fool!

I agree with Make Lemonade. I just don't think you can separate the other things from the money. It all goes together.

But I do hate the word "guru." In fact, I was inspired to come here after getting JP's post on whether or not it's a good word.

I think we tend to idolize copywriters, which is just dumb. I do think we can respect those who have accomplished a lot and are worth learning from. Frankly, there are those who have done that, but whom I don't respect, because I don't respect them as people.

Those who have accomplished a great deal, done it with integrity and regard for their clients and their client's clients, and who are good people overall, they are the ones that I respect - but I still think calling them gurus is silly.

Gary Bencivenga comes to mind.

Also, I went to Tina Lorenz's seminar, and she, too, fits the description above.

As for making half a mil - as dreadfully far away as I am from that lofty goal, I'm not going to get too excited over a copywriter because of that alone.

Janet

Oops, I left out Michel Fortin himself (regarding accomplished copywriters who are also very good people) - sorry Michel!

There is a huge difference between being successful - and for many people, money is a measure of that - and being able to teach others. "Guru" means wise teacher, and this has nothing to do with how much money you've earned.

I have had several extremely wise writing teachers who cared more about teaching than about making money.

Likewise, I have encountered many successful people who for a variety of reasons are completely unable to teach anyone else to repeat their success.

Marcia Yudkin

marciaydkin give a great separation of the words "GURU" from "successful", and she is right.

"GURU" the word sound a mystical one, and it relation with money in my modest vision is:"Renounciation", to go beyond money and material stuff, to elevate your thinking upon those material OWNING.

to OWN is a word that go against elevation, the words that fit "GURU", are :

give, share, forgive, wise, tolerate, patient ...

to be a guru you have to set up your self upon POCESSION.

and it isn't easy to do.

"GURU" the label in my mind is always associated to those humble spiritual guide : Tebetain, Indou (from india), and chiness spiritual guide too ...

the common aspect of all those spiritual guide regarding the money is :"Renounciation". (to Renounce).

Renounciation i: don't mean to have nothing, but to avoid material thing obcession.

it is not about making an amount of money or not, it is not about making a fortune or to have a modest living.

it is about to live and to give.

this is my modest vision.