Persuasion vs. Service - Page 3

Peter · **Re: Persuasion vs. Service -** 10-06-2003, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter

Everyone is manipulative. (Please don't give me the "so if everyone does it, that doesn't make it right," routine).

Your (general) parents are manipulative. Your boss is manipulative. Your friends are manipulative. Your neighbors are manipulative. You are manipulative.

I do find it objectionable to see guests in someone's forum throwing unfounded guilting and shaming plaintives at the wall. (Now, gee whiz, why would Michel quickly disassociate himself from spammers after days of this crap?)

I am amused when amateurs start telling top writers how things should be done. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Michel Fortin, Alan Forest Smith and a few others are the top writers of sales copy on the Web.

The discussion was at times interesting and that scores marginal points against the difficulty I had accessing anything of value.

The conditions under which this discussion occured, the insults, are reprehensible. You found a bit more of your voice and everyone else paid a belabored price.

On a related note:

Nick Usborne is a good writer, but not a sales copy writer. With regard to sales copy, his statements have been inaccurate the likes of which border on disinformation. He was hypocritical.

He made a strategic error in slamming and slagging those of us who write sales copy. He would have been better off sticking with his original message about improving the quality of writing on the Web. The negative slant was ingenuous as it takes him out of a beneficent position.

I don't necessarily agree with improving the quality of writing on the Web because of the politics involved and the exclusive nature of the exercise. As much as I would enjoy reading great writing, the idea doesn't take into consideration those who don't write well. This Internet is everyone's community. We are a part of it. That perspective, in and of itself will improve the Internet. We are part of something bigger.

That said, Nick has a good, if not obvious point. He needs to crystalize his message to really carry it home. At this stage, his message has the impact of me saying literacy is a problem in our (US) public school system. (Aggregators will help us choose the portion of the Web we want to enjoy).

There isn't a 'one style against another style' arguement that is valid. I can't help, but notice the irony of "quality" writers, writing thousands upon thousands of words over the past couple of weeks, presenting (B.S.) their emotions as factual claims. "People don't take the time to read those long letters", "...Don't go below the first fold", and my favorite "PEOPLE DON'T BUY FROM THAT JUNK". Baloney. Now who's selling "snake oil?"

It's not what they said that ticks me off. It's the arrogance with which they express their stupidity (lacking mental alertness).

I actually contained myself when I addressed the gentleman yelling "snake oil". He's a book seller and when I clicked over to his home page, the first book featured there was: "Play Piano in a Flash... without lessons". Somehow I think of the measure of time referred to as a "Flash" to be a wee bit shorter than, oh, I dunno, a second. Snake oil? Snake oil? (Mark your calenders, because on that occasion I showed social grace, damn it). So much for integrity (his).

It's possible that I'm mistaken, but I don't recall any facts being presented this entire time. The "quality" writers were willing to make potentially damaging statements without any basis in fact? Is that good writing or what? Integrity? Social improvement? Intelligent? No, it's gossip.

I told Michel we ought to all lighten up by thinking of this whole deal as one big (gossipy) Tupperware party.

Burp your containers, now.

Peter Stone

**Re: Persuasion vs. Service -** 10-06-2003, 01:40 AM

And your point is?

Alan Forrest Smith · **Re: Persuasion vs. Service -** 10-06-2003, 03:50 AM

This Forum is designed to exchange ideas, good and bad. You are both making great contributions and both have great opinions. Lets not get into a slagging match. Lets keep doing what we all do well. Help each other to find out what is working and does work.

Pete ... great voice. Janeaolgy... fabulous posts.

Timothy Warnock · **Re: Persuasion vs. Service -** 10-06-2003, 07:23 AM

Hi all,

I agree with Alan, and not only do I appreciate both voices, I appreciate ALL voices that I have seen so far on this forum - experienced or not, the questions, reflections, and answers, have been truly helpful and interesting IMHO.

To get back to the discussion...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan

NEVER try to be clever with clients or prospects. Once they see through it ... your history.

People NEVER buy products, they buy the answer to a problem, solutions sell.

Great point Alan.

We have experience with both the selling of high end services (several thousand dollars) and small stuff ($20). For the small stuff, we rely almost entirely on the copy, but for the high end stuff, it requires direct, personal contact (personal emails, fax, and often phone calls). Once the potential client gets to know us as individuals, they start to seriously consider our services. We make it a point to NOT force the sale, and transparently lay the cards on the table - (these are your benefits, these are your costs to make your project fly, you have to give us the reigns for awhile to make this work - is this ok with you?, and these will be your costs in the future to maintain your success, etc.)

Basically, we try to eliminate any potential surprises.

Then we try to OVERDELIVER, not only because it makes us feel good about the service provided, but also because we recognize that a great percentage of new clients comes through personal recommendations.

The classic win - win.

Treating the customer right, even when things go wrong (you have to fire them, etc.) will, and does win in the long run.

Is this a form of persuasion? Perhaps, but with win-win in mind, at least nobody walks away feeling "had" - quite the contrary, your clients will do the "persuading" for you!

All the best,

Tim

Alan Forrest Smith · **Re: Persuasion vs. Service -** 10-06-2003, 07:46 AM

Recently had a new client call me for a job. When I asked him who it was that sent him it was a client that I had fired. Just no figuring some folks for sure.

Integrity is a must in any job. You do what you do and do it welll. Copy is a great way to do that. Good to hear you go the extra mile Tim that is a powerful add on for you.

Tim you said...

Quote:

Is this a form of persuasion? Perhaps, but with win-win in mind, at least nobody walks away feeling "had" - quite the contrary, your clients will do the "persuading" for you!

Sure thing it is. Dan Kennedy said, "perception is greater than reality" I agree 100% with him, it really is true.

Imagine telling a client that wants to spend over £25,000 that you dont want the contract. They ask you why? You tell them its not the kind of work you. You give them the reaspons and they are not only baffled but beleive me they are impressed. This in return creates demand as they then want something they cant have. Neat!

How do I know? I did it for a national campaign in a well known newspaper. Did I want the money? You bet I did. Did I want the glory? Sure would have loved it. Why didint I do it? Simple. It crossed a line I dont cross. Integrity.

Timothy Warnock · **Re: Persuasion vs. Service -** 10-06-2003, 08:10 AM

To take this on a slightly philosophical turn...

Integrity is all we really have in the end - can't take those $$$ with us when it's our turn to kick the bucket.

It seems so few can honestly claim, as you have Alan, to have actually lived, and passed an integrity "test", it is so easy to make excuses... "I needed the money", "my family is depending on me", "I'm not hurting anybody, what's wrong with accepting this...", etc. etc. etc.

I too have passed my integrity tests (at least the vast majority of them), and have taken my share of hits for having done so. My hat's off to you, and all those that do the same - it reveals the true character of an individual.

Thanks for sharing.

Tim

phil · **Re: Persuasion vs. Service -** 10-06-2003, 09:43 AM

Jane, you can be my attorney any day! You have the gift!

Peter, jump back in buddy, no hard feelings. Your points
are heard here.

Everybody,

I really like Tim's emphasis on overdelivery. Exceeding
expectations seems like a very smart strategy.

How might we apply this overdelivery concept to the sales
copy side of the equation? That's what I'm reaching for.

How can I as a writer escape the formula available
on a million other pages, so that my readers are surprised
and delighted, and thus actually read my copy?

What would my readers consider copy overdelivery?

I could stay within the persuasion paradigm and tinker with
the words to test out various versions of hard sell and soft
sell. OK, that's an option.

Is tinkering with the wording enough, or do I have to change
the mindset behind my wording in order to jog the reader
out of their habitual, conditioned, long practised reaction
to anything they see as falling in to the "sales pitch" box
in their mind?

Can I exceed expectations from within the persuasion point
of view?

Interesting irony crossed my mind this morning.

My no-sell strategy thread does seem pretty theorhetical
even hopelessly idealistic, as I describe it, I must admit.

Then I pondered the way Mike is hosting this forum, and
the effect it is having on me. Obviously Mike created
this forum to build his business, we all understand that.

Look at the way he is building his business in this space.
His posts are information heavy and opinion lite. He is
honest enough as a writer to be interesting, but always
respectful.

And there is NO pitch involved at all. None. A point of
view expressed, yes. Attempts to persuade us to buy
something, no.

Mike isn't thinking of his forum members as cattle that have
to be cleverly hearded down the sales funnel. He is not
writing to us from that point of view, thus there is no need
for him to use an intricate formula to carefully weigh the
exact tactical consequences of each word.

He's just being himself naturally, and we are reacting
favorably to a genuine fellow human being.

If we want to acheive a unique voice that doesn't generate
resistance we might consider doing as Mike does, not what he
says, and doing what Phil says, but NOT what he does!

Phil

Alan Forrest Smith · **Re: Persuasion vs. Service -** 10-06-2003, 09:56 AM

Phil you said...

Quote:

Is tinkering with the wording enough, or do I have to change
the mindset behind my wording in order to jog the reader
out of their habitual, conditioned, long practised reaction
to anything they see as falling in to the "sales pitch" box
in their mind?

I have just re-written my home page. Reason I felt tinkering wouldnt be enough. I wanted to test a different approach. So since I re-wrote the whole thing I can report enquiries have risen substantially. Here are the before and after.

Before http://www.orangebeetle.com/oldindex.htm

After http://www.orangebeetle.com/index.htm

Only did the change a few days ago so after a week or so if there is anything major to report... I will bang results out on this board for you

Michel Fortin · **Re: Persuasion vs. Service -** 10-06-2003, 10:03 AM

Folks,

I'm going to lock this topic.

I do not wish this forum to be used as a platform for political, social or moral discussion. While they may be borderline, some posts, I fear, are on their way to crossing that line. I'm not going to trash it because it offers some extremely valuable insights from all contributing members. And perhaps we might continue this topic on another thread, yet hopefully in a more diplomatic fashion.

Let's be passionate. Let's debate. Let's express our opnions but with the aim to help others. That's what makes this forum great. Let's offer our ideas in the spirit of courtesy, collaboration, respect and fairness. Let's help each other and learn from each other. But please, let's do so by sticking with the issue -- direct response copywriting. Granted, some of them are to some degree. And some of them are hot topics, too! But let's not get too distracted with other, more irrelevant issues in the process.

I am a perpetual student. I learn something new with each person, each post, each opinion and each experience. I'd be a fool not to listen to other people whose opinions might help me and my clients make more money. We all have something worthwhile to contribute.

However, I do not want to turn this forum into a 100% moderated forum let alone a dead one by closing it. I want to make this forum inviting. Whether we are right or wrong is not the issue. But when we become too aggressive in our posts, we are scaring off other posters lest they be chastised or harshly criticised for their opnions.

Your Administrator,