You know, clients who ...

1) Refuse to pay even though they're happy with your work.

2) Clients who take your writing and then demand a refund so they
can get it for free.

3) Clients who demand a refund (even though you don't allow for such
in your contract) who threaten you with lawsuits or smear if you don't
give in to their demands.

4) Have you ever been sued by a client? If so, did you win?

5) For you, especially if you've been in the business for some time, how
often do client/copywriter issues such as the above arise?

Thanks.

I've never had problems #2,3,4... only dealt with slight variations of #1.

Learned this the hard way: instead of dealing with such problems, better to not let them come up in the first place.

For example, one thing I learned from Alan: charge 50% deposit before you start work, and get the other half before handing over the finished copy. (Of course, make sure the client knows this before entering into the agreement.)

This does 2 things: (1) Problem #1 doesn't even come up. (2) Problems #2,3,4 are also much less likely to happen. If the client wanted to rip you off, he'd probably look for an easier target -- plenty of copywriters out there who allow payment after doing the work. (If the client has a problem with paying before he gets the copy, I take it as a big red warning sign.)

Yeo

In the almost three years I've been in business as a freelance copywriter, I've only had one Client from Hell. There were plenty of red flags along the way -- he wanted me to start work before I got the signed agreement and deposit check from him. He would miss scheduled phone interviews. He was in a huge rush, he faxed the agreement, didn't I get it? Couldn't I start anyway? I didn't budge, however, until the signed agreeement and deposit check arrived.

He had contracted me to "rewrite" his website for him. In the agreement, I spelled out exactly what I would and would not rewrite -- some of it was already good, and didn't need a rewrite. I don't think he ever read that, however, and just assumed I would totally re-do everything. When I delivered the copy to him he suddenly "discovered" that much of the copy was exactly like his competitors'. It turns out that he had stolen his existing web copy from all his competitors and assumed a "rewrite" would make it okay. He had told me the original copy was his, and if he'd actually read the agreement, he would have seen I was not going to rewrite everything, only the stuff that needed rewriting.

When I told him what he was doing was ethically wrong, he suddenly demanded all his money back, and said he wouldn't use my work. Ummm .... nope, don't think so. I busted my chops during Christmas week, when I much rather would have been playing with my kids, at a discounted rate no less (yes, I was a sucker) because he'd given me such a sob story about how much he needed this done. I also told him that if the stolen web copy got posted, I would let his competitors know about it, and I would tell his web host as well. Well, he ranted, raved, threatened to sue me, told me he had far deeper pockets than mine (this, after he talked me down in price initially because he didn't have the budget for it), and told me I'd never work in this town again.

I'm still here. He's not. And now I've got a watertight clause in all my agreements that says clients assume all liability for intellectual property rights issues.

Yeo,

When you say,
what do you consider to be "finished copy"?

I'm assuming you allow the client to see the "nearly final" copy, so he/she can see if you've actually done the job to his/her satisfaction, before paying you the balance. Is this right?

I'm just wondering where to draw the line. I would not expect a client to pay the final balance until he/she is totally satisfied with my work.

If you're concerned that the client will take the final copy and run without paying the balance, is a formal agreement (like Eileen mentions) a deterrent to this? Especially if it's followed up with threats to "go public" about the client's unethical business practices? I would think that clients would be concerned enough about their reputation to NOT risk this sort of thing, especially on the Internet where we all share information so easily and quickly. But I guess it DOES happen.

I personally haven't had to deal with this type of situation yet, so I appreciate knowing the best ways to prevent and/or overcome it.

Thanks!

I don't require final payment until the final copy has been approved by the client. However, I do also insert a clause into the agreement that says if they don't assign any revisions within two weeks, the job will be assumed to be acceptable and the final invoice will be sent. This prevents people from procrastinating on finalizing the project.

I also have a clause in my agreement saying that all rights to the material transfer to the client upon final payment. That means they can't use it until they pay for it. Theoretically, then I could go after them if they violated that agreement. In reality, it might cost me more hassle and lawyers' fees that it would be worth.

Since I've been in business, I've only had this one bad egg. I have also learned to listen to my intuition on people and have diplomatically declined to work with a small handful of folks, because I sensed they'd either be a pain in the neck to work with, or downright dishonest. Once you get past the first few months in business, with that sort of newbie desperate attitude of taking any job you can get, you begin operating with a real sense of confidence and this gets much much easier.

Funny, I've always handled this instinctively. Looking back, this is what I do, which works for me so far. (I might not be the best person to model though -- only been copywriting 6 months. And learned to "get paid first" in the past few weeks, after reading Alan's terms and conditions on his website.)

There are the clients experienced in direct marketing, and the inexperienced clients.

For the experienced clients, I usually send them 1 or 2 drafts (say, 70-80% complete) first so they can give me feedback, before I finalize it. I did it instinctively, but looking back, it makes sense. Because they know what they're doing direct-response-wise, and their feedback is valuable.

For the inexperienced clients, the final copy is usually the first copy they ever see. Again, did this instinctively, never gave it much thought. Always got away with it though. But makes sense now that I think of it. The inexperienced clients want to be led -- so I lead them. If they wanted to see drafts, I would've shown them -- but (so far) they never request. (Even back when I allowed clients to pay later, the inexperienced clients only saw the final copy, nothing else.)

Yes, I want satisfied clients, but more than that I want them to make money with my work. Especially with inexperienced clients, what they "like" and what makes them money are 2 different things. So, for this group, showing them the copy for them to "approve" before paying could be counter-productive. It just delays you getting paid, and delays your client making money. Lose-lose.

After they pay though, what I do (for now -- I'll probably have to scrap this soon, beginning to feel the crunch) is support them over the next 45 days, even helping them implement split-testing. Provided they use the copy. I started doing this because I want my clients to actually use the copy and not tinker until they've at least tested it. If it doesn't do well then fair enough, I help them rewrite and improve it. But they gotta test it first.

I imagine I do scare away some clients by insisting on "getting paid first", but I'd just rather not chase after payments. I used to (stupidly) let clients pay after they get results. What happens? When they still got their money, they sit on their ass, or tinker with the copy, then email you asking you to repair the mess, whole can of worms, and I never got paid. Happened a few times before I realized I was a fool. Sometimes I'm a slow learner

Yeo

There are always the 'growing pains' that anyone new to a particular
business has to go through towards maturity.

Even thoug I haven't had such difficult clients my most annoying
cases are 'clients' who find me when they need a special deal
but give their 'big jobs' to others.

That's why I don't prostitute my copywriting services anymore.
I find that those who pay the least demands the most from you.
Sometimes just your fee can be a fence against the troublesome
clients ... sometimes!

Regards,

Ray Edwards

Were I writing for clients, I'd request that they give me the urls/samples of several long-copy websites they like, and several they don't, so that you have a clear upfront understanding of what their goal is .. the "look and feel" of the copy that they want their site to look like.

Of course, charging premium rates and requiring 30-50% upfront helps qualify your client base to attract (hopefully) savvier and more experienced, less troublesome clients.

Me, I'd rather just create my own info-empire and write copy for my own stuff ... clients can be a pain (I've had 140+ business ones back as a sales consultant, www.kencalhoun.com/clients.htm ), and "all it takes is one difficult one" to put a damper on the week/month. Though most are great, and fun to work with.

Ken

Strangely enough ...

Do nothing without 50% up-front! Then the balance is paid PRIOR to delivery.

So you get all payments based on the prmosie that if they hate the work, you'll still fix it for them.

Now, funnily enough...

Aloough my clinets get an agreement saying just that around 2 weeks ago I finished a webpage for a new client and his 50% was a hefty amount.

I told him the copy was ready to roll. He is refusing to pay the 50% balance until he see's his copy!

So he has paid me a large lump with nothing to show for it. I have spent ages writing his stuff and not had my full payment. Clkients can drive us mental but at least the 50% down covers us when it goes wrong.

Hi Alan,

What can you do in this situation? Can you come to some kind of agreement with the client? Or will you keep the 50% deposit and just not give him the copy?

I can see 2 sides to this. On the one hand, he has signed an agreement with you agreeing to your terms of business, and therefore he shouldn't be trying to move the goal posts now.

On the other, I can see that if I was a client, I might feel quite nervous about shelling out the full amount on something which, at this stage, feels speculative to me. I might be scared that you'd done a mediocre job and were going to cash my cheque and leave me in the lurch, and then it would be off to court with all its attendant difficulties.

So thinking about it, it seems to be a case of trust. For some reason, the client doesn't trust that you've done a good job and that you'll make him a richer man. And you don't trust him to pay up, after he's got his hands on your copy (a syndrome I think we've all faced at some point).

If he's this untrusting, does that mean that he is accustomed to less than ethical dealings with people?

Would it be possible to accept say 75 or 80% of the fee to hand over the copy (and give him the previous revision!!), and then at least you've both had some satisfaction. If he wants it finished off (final revision), then he has to pay the balance of 20-25%.

Just an idea to kick around. Does that work? Or is it better to just stand your ground and stick to your principles?

Jane