Peter,

I apologise for having a go at you.

I agree with Tim that I am accusing you of the same thing that I'm doing myself, which is to overreact.

I understand that you feel you are being called into question. My confusion was over whether any comments were specifically directed at you, and if they weren't, then why you felt that they were.

Anyway, I do not wish to inflame the situation any further. Like most people, I am just trying to find my way in a world full of contradictions. I can only speak for myself when I say that I learn a lot from contentious discussion.

It's not my wish that you should feel bad or judged and I apologise if anything I've said made you feel that way.

Jane

I switched the order of your sentences, so that I could say "thank you", first.

The following is most definately not directed "at" you...

Yes, yes, yes. We are all human. And equally fallable. And you said it; we're full of contradictions. And that's an acceptable basis for an agreement, as I see it.

Look, we're both smart and strong willed. As the saying goes, put us in a room with a typewriter and we'll either write something truely profound, or, "The world sucks".

(That's an expression of my respect, in case you missed it. Here's another).

My sis, the one in the clergy, is a bible scholar. She travels to exotic places for summits on sections of spiritual writings. Anyway, the bible scholars are the same way - brilliant and at each other 'till they find a common ground.

But wait... there's more.

I don't know if you know it, but you could quickly and easily be a six figure writer. I don't care if that's important to you or not. Just hear it as I mean it, ok?


Peter Stone

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Is this to say that someone like me has the talent to be a six figure writer, or is it to say that anyone with enough drive can become a six figure writer? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm just trying to get my bearings. No one ever said that to me before!

I'd have to admit that I'm a bit ambivalent about writing. I used to hate writing essays at school - give me maths problems anyday. For the most part, I write for my clients more out of a sense of duty (because their own writing is usually so inept) rather than a sense of passion. Even if my writing isn't top-notch, it is still considerably more effective than anything they could produce themselves.

Ultimately, I think my real forte is strategy and analysis, rather than writing. Having said that, if someone were to offer to pay me $10,000 to do their writing, I think I could probably find the passion!

Jane

Well, both. That was a high compliment that I gave you. Now, to answer your questions, I'll seem like I'm modifying what I said. I'm not. But, to answer your questions...

Both. You obviously have talent. God knows you're prolific - you really pound it out, fast and organized. But the last sentence is true, too. Anything takes drive, though.

Marketing is the key to the vault, for you. Not your writing quality. You're beyond the quality and work ethic questions.

Using conventional definitions, society really doesn't pay for sincerity or talent. You can't pay the bills using sincerity or talent. This is just my opinion. It's crass and a bit vulgar - both society and my opinion, but that's the real shake.

I 'simply' figure out fascinations. What fascinates people about a certain product or service? Themselves - that's what's behind the question: "What's in it for me?" Then I relate that to the product or service, but from their angle. That's fast access to getting them to spend, freely. Fast and loose writing = fast and loose spending, to some degree. Some things can't be sold this way, very well. It's hard to write fast and loose about a router, for instance. However, it can be done.

Frankly, I'm not overly impressed with my own writing. No sympathy necessary, though. I bill pretty high, I suppose. Not as much as others, but 2K/week isn't so tough. I billed over 3 times that, last week. That's unusually high for me, but there it is - following Ken's inspiration to lay the money on the table.

I'm happy to disturb you, in just such a way.

As far as perfectionism goes, "Out, out damn spot". (Are you familiar with the context of this quote?") In this context, my advice to you is, lower your standards. They're getting in the way of you benefitting the market.

And this easily relates to what I'm saying about the reality of the wants of the market, Vs. the image one might have of the market. Find out how they already BEHAVE, in fact, and position your product so as to throw it in front of that, specific behavioral path. Approaching the sale from this angle, your audience is already there - behaving in a certain manner. There's no convincing them or educating them necessary, to get them to change their behavior. They're already there. You just have to convince them that whatever you're selling realates to their pre-existing thinking and behavior patterns. And the key to that is research, usually.

Maybe this will help to clarify what I'm trying to say. If you want to sell a ton of tomatos, then find out who buys the most tomatos. Let's describe that market as 50 year old, college educated women, the bulk of whom work in an "X" type of job. Now, we've defined a market and need to know what fascinates them. Each group has a hierarchy. Actually, it's more like a cluster of needs, but let's not trail off.

How 'bout smooth skin as that which is at the top of their hierarchy. I haven't done enough research on this one, but if I do enough research, I guarantee you that I'll find something about tomatos that will enhance the fine texture of their complexion - or give them better gas milage, if that's what they want.

Now, if I sell flavor, texture, freshness - the tomato dies on the vine. It'll sell, but not enough to interest anyone in comparison to selling to the fascination of that same market. But, it really does have to be based in truth and that's one good source of passion - introducing someone to a new truth.

Pivotal in all of this, is the irrationality to the whole process. For a woman of 50 to want her complexion to look and feel like it did when she was 20, is irrational. ASK her and she'll TELL you: "That's ridiculous". But if you stick the right headline on a tomato - bingo, you're in. Welcome to the Matrix.


Neo

Peter and Jane,

Nice thread you guys, very thoughtful and positive. I
hope I can keep up.

This is very interesting. And well said.

I think Peter is right on the large scale of things,
the world of people, and nature in general for
that matter, is a fairly ruthless no nonsense place.

Perhaps that's just what gives sincerity and talent
whatever power they do have, they can be experienced as
a refreshing and unexpected change.

I experience a collision in my thoughts between the
reality Peter refers to, which I acknowledge, and my
own experience of what works for me, as a buyer, and a
seller.

25 years of self employment has convinced me that I
sell the best when I push the sincerity and talent
forward, and push the marketing stuff back.

People step in the door expecting the usual crass and
vulgar etc, and if I can exceed those expectations,
then I've got a leg up from the start. That's not
enough on it's own, the product still has to cut the
mustard, but it's a help.

I see these same things at work when I'm on the buying
side. But it's fair to ask if whether I as a buyer might be
saying one thing and doing another. And I'm not the
market.

So, let's forget me, and look at around for somebody else.

It looks to me like Jane and Peter are selling each
other with sincerity and talent.

I recall reading a post where Peter opened up and
shared some of his personal history, and that helped
win me over. I was able to see the commonality
between my hard nosedness and Peter's, and now I'm more
receptive to buying his next post, or whatever else
he might be selling. Maybe Jane experienced the
same opening?

Sincerity and talent. It worked.

I think sometimes we talk about "buyers" in the abstract
as if they were somebody other than you and me.

I ask myself, and I ask you:

Do we, you and me, in our own personal life, respond
better to the crass and vulgar, or the sincerity?

Do we, you and me, in our own personal life, read the
sales blurb on the box, or the independent Consumer
Reports review?

On one hand we have testing data that points in one
direction, on the other hand I look at the real people
around me in action, and I wonder who the testing data
is coming from...

Don't know the answer, but I know I like the questions.
Nice thread Peter.

PS. "Welcome to the Matrix". Great line!

Great thoughts, guys. Plenty for me to chew on over the coming days. I'm especially going to think about lowering my standards and what is the real "fascination" in a product/service from Peter's side.

From Phil's side I'm going to ponder the sincerity and talent thing.

Certainly from my own perspective, I warmed much more to Peter as a result of this. Now that we've all calmed down a bit , and now that we've shared a bit more of ourselves - our feelings and backgrounds, I am far more open to Peter's opinion and perspective than I might have been before. It's as though now that we've got past wanting to bash each other over the head with our own opinions, some space has been created for true communication.

I can also relate to what Phil is saying about not "marketing at" potential clients but just being open and honest. Most of the time it seems that my clients don't have the time or the energy to thoroughly research what is available to them, and once they've stumbled across me, something "clicks". I'm not aware of them shopping around with other consultants, although this isn't to say that they don't do it. I do usually try to give them what I believe is in their best interests, even if that means a lost sale, rather than trying to sell as much as possible. However, most of the time what I think is in their best interests is actually considerably more than what they had self-diagnosed that they needed, so perhaps "best interests" and marketing do collide at this point.

Anyway, thanks for sharing

Jane,

Please allow me to clarify two points. By 'lowering standards', I mean that your writing doesn't have to be incredible, or fit some arbitrary definition of 'perfect', before you send it out the door. It does have to get the job done - no question.

I am not suggesting that you should change your core beliefs, your style or values, or that you should trade them for money.

The bit about marketing is meant as a reference to marketing yourself, not a general reference to marketing. Too, I realize that you're getting there.


Peter

Hi Jane,

Although sometimes all the recent controversies may
have seemed like a distraction from getting real work
done, my feeling is that overall they were very
relevant and productive. Not so much for the debating
points perhaps, but for the experience itself. The
suffering all around wasn't in vain.

We all just went through a real life sales process.
Each of us got the opportunity to personally experience
being both buyer and seller.

That real world personal experience adds another
level of useful information to the data and theories
we analyze from a distance.

The interesting question seems to be: how to
energetically push our commerical or intellectual
messages, without creating the push back that
undermines our own agenda?

We still want to push, but can we find a more effective
tool to push with than the strong button pushing
language that seems to be generating the push back?

Instead of hitting the buyer with everything in our
arsenal all at once, we might pull them in to an
autoresponder series and work on them a bit more gently
day after day after day.

30 sales messages instead of 1.

We're still being relentless, but maybe relentless in a
more effective way. Instead of hitting them with a
rock, we're wearing them down with an endless stream of
water. Water always wins in a contest with rocks, eh?

Now we have 30 or more chances to sell them on this
offer, and if that fails, we can try again with another
offer. And another.

The key to being able to deliver an endless series
of marketing messages would seem to be knowing
how to push without generating the push back.

Anyone else have an idea how we might keep
pushing, without having to fight our way through
so much push back?

I agree.


Peter Stone