A local store has asked me to rebuild their website(which currently sucks). It will consist of a home page and at least 4 other pages of product content and info.
Also there will be numerous links but NO shopping cart. They aren't ready. Yet.

Uh...

What the heck should I charge them? I have some thoughts but don't want to sell myself short.

I'm sure this is an age old discussion but thought I would ask for some opinions.

Do you need to do design? Copy?

It depends...

If I were you, I'd charge them $1000 for a non-unique design, buy a cheap template that's not overused and write some ACTIONABLE copy for them. You've just done them a $5,000 service at 20% of the cost and slashed 20% of your working hours.

thanks Erik,
Nice, solid to the point advice.

This a store which has regional name recognition in a niche market. They've got a logo which I'll use but I've got carte blanche with the rest.

I waqs going to use X-site pro or Site build it (since I don't know HTML)

Thoughts?

Webdesign typically works out at £75-£100 per page plus some for overhead.

It depends largely on what you're doing. Are you giving them webstrategy consulting? Copy? Or just the mechanics of chucking their content into a new design?

What is their budget? How much do they want/expect to spend? How long will it take you to execute the entire project and how much do you want to earn per hour?

I'm not sure that I agree with Erik about using an unmodified template. Apart from the obvious ethical consideration (unless you tell them), is the fact that they probably already have some colours as part of their visual identity - so you'll have to do something that is a continuation of that. Also, I wouldn't limit them in this way - maybe they want a premium service, so offer it to them.

On a technical note, I would use a content management system as the backend. Once the template is designed (and I know one guy who does really good templates for about US$400), then development, changes and additions etc are much, much easier. I would never, ever, ever, ever go back to static html. Nor would I recommend it to any clients unless they really only had 4 pages and were never likely to grow beyond that. But then again, a 4 page site is probably never going to do well in the search engines. Also, if you use a CMS it will grow with them, you don't have to keep dicking about manually updating the navigation, and if they want to keep it updated themselves, you can charge them for training. Also, you can charge a much higer monthly hosting fee - I charge about $65 per month for full support.

Hope that's given you some ideas. My site is in a CMS (joomla) - you can see it here www.attractioneers.com. Even the Site Map is dynamically generated. I think the main joomla site is at www.joomla.org.

Oh, and in case you think there's any problem with search engines from a database driven site - my site is spidered every 2 to 3 days by google, msn, ask jeeves, inktomi and various other things, and I'm listed in all of those plus overture, tiscali and possibly even AOL. And I've never even submitted my site. My conclusion is that the search engines actually like my Joomla site.

Jane

Hey Pescador,

Like Erik said, a lot depends on how much work you have to do here. If they're supplying the copy and images and you're just putting it all together online, I myself would have a hard time charging anyone more than $500 or so. If they expect you to research their market and put it all together for them, $1000 or more could be reasonable.

Also consider what other designers in your town might charge. Do some research on your competition so you know what you're up against and can justify your pricing if your client thinks you're asking too much.

Also remember that it's easier to come down from a higher price than it is to go up from a lower one, so don't be afraid of asking too much (within reason). The worst they can do is say "NO" and then you can renegotiate and come to a more agreeable price.

Good luck!

P.S. Jane - Kudos on a fantqastic Joomla site (www.attractioneers.com) - I never would've guessed you were using Joomla as that's a VERY sharp template there!

Pescador - if you decide to consider using a CMS like Jane suggested, you might also consider WordPress which makes a nice system for smaller sites that don't need all of the features that Joomla offers. With some decent image editing skills you can modify one of the many available WordPress templates to develop a look all your own.

Steve,

Yeah bro, I've got to write all the copy and try to optimize it. I've worked in the industry before so that won't a problem. Like many clients they don't have much of a clue. Unlike most, they admit it!

Believe it or not I've got a copy of the last proposal from 2003 which cost them over $3500 for 1 page and NO SEO! Ridiculous.

Well in that case, writing copy and doing SEO in addition to everything else I could certainly see you charging into the low four figures for this. I'd spend most of your time on that though and keep the design of the site as simple as possible - either using a simple html template customized for your client or using a template as part of a CMS like Joomla or WordPress.

Let us know how you make out!

Oh boy -- there is so much that goes into this.

Nobody here can just whip out a number for you, because we don't know your skill level, your experience, how much graphics work is involved (do they have a logo? do they have photos?) or how much of the site is already prepared (do they have copy already written? do they know what they even want on their site?!).

There are hundreds of quantitative variables, and still more qualitative/soft variables which don't have a precise value.

Web design is a whole industry. It's not a "hey, a friend asked me to whip this up" sort of thing. There are countless considerations and details. If you don't walk into it well-educated and strongly structured, and with a complete written contract, it's a 90% sure bet you will get burned. When Andrew Neitlich and the folks at Sitepoint talk about this stuff, they're not kidding. I didn't listen the first time, either -- and I also got burned. I wised up and bought Brendon Sinclair's package. I'm glad I did -- it saved me from repeated disaster.

There are many decisions you need to make before ever firing up Photoshop or picking out a shopping cart system.

• How many drafts/revisions will the client get?
• Can the client demand a full redesign at one of your review stages, and not incur additional charges? (Answer here should be "no"!)
• How exactly do you define revision vs. redesign? You'll need those definitions to avoid being screwed into 100+ more hours of unpaid work.
• Who writes the copy? Who decides what should be involved?
• What happens if you, or them, doesn't meet a deadline? At what point does the project get "shelved" for your protection or theirs?
• Are you owed money for work done to date, if the client stops responding to your requests for information?
• Do they still owe you money if at Revision #2 they decide they don't like the work (even though you designed it exactly to their specs) and they don't want to pay you?
• Who owns the copyright on a partially-completed work?
• Who owns the copyright on a completed work?

And it goes on, and on, and on............. These are routine, everyday issues and common scenarios. Your contract is vitally important.


As for pricing, you should price based on value. This is not necessarily your perceived value, as we techies usually significantly undervalue ourselves. What is the value as perceived by the client? That is what you should charge.

By the same token, if you have zero graphics design skills, don't know the first thing about website navigation and design (or what makes a truly well-designed website)... well then you can't really charge a professional web designer rate. You have to cut your fees to make up for your lack of experience and skills. So then it becomes an exercise of at least trying to make enough cash to cover your time.

I'm not going to go deeply into specific site system recommendations, because I could write a book (in fact, I am writing a book! ). I have had nothing but headaches with Mambo and Joomla. I use Wordpress for my blogs and like that a lot... but I would never put a retailer on Wordpress... it doesn't display articles and pages the correct way for a fully functional website. Wordpress is blog software, it just hasn't yet made the jump to CMS. (I wish it would! I'm eagerly waiting for the day...)

There are also webhosting plans which offer web-based HTML page editors. These work just fine, really. So if you have an HTML-making program (a good-quality one is Contribute) the client can still edit their pages in the HTML page editor included with their hosting plan. So if you choose to write static pages, no problem. On the right hosting plan they can still edit them in a comfortable, familiar, WYSIWYG interface. It's seriously just like editing a Word document.

One thing that I like about starting the client out in HTML is that it is scalable. Really! HTML pages can be "plugged in" in the future, to a shopping cart system like OSCommerce or Zencart. As well, HTML pages can have items for sale easily added through the use of Mal's E-Commerce... that's how Mal's works. You just add items and his shopping cart code, to the static page. Voila! They're now selling. Or, if they switch to a dynamic cart system (like OSC, Zencart, whatever) you can always copy/paste the pieces & parts of their current HTML pages into the new cart. The core work is already done, you just transfer it over to the new system. *shrug*


If they don't need prescise placement control of their individual items, then a CMS is fine. If they do need precise placement control of different individual items (one promos high-right on page 2, a different promo low-center on page 3, etc.) then static/HTML is the way to go.

Above all else though -- protect yourself so you aren't taken advantage of. They won't "mean" to take advantage of you... it's just a situation and an industry that is prone to people wanting everything at no additional cost -- or not understanding what is/is not included with the quote.

Bailey

You should really hand this project over to someone who does know HTML/javascript/php etc. whatever whatever whatever. I've tried using HTML generators before, and you'll end up in a mess if you don't know HTML. Not only that, but last time I looked, the Site Build it sites are abysmal.

And, I'm bound to say, that it's a tad disingenous to take on a project that requires a skill set that you don't have. Hive off the web design stuff to someone else, you do the copy and manage the project, and charge a profit over and above what your webdesigner charges you. And make sure you get the webdesigner to charge 15-20% less than they normally do, given that they've had no marketing cost or sales meetings etc.

SEO typically costs about $2500 per year (but you'll probably have to provide a guarantee with this). The webdesign (if done properly and NOT on the cheap) should be at least $1000. Copy for 4 pages - depends on how complex the proposition and how much copy required, but at least another $1000.

If this level of investment is too much for them, then ask yourself if you really want clients like this. I've had my fair share of cheapskate clients, but I just walk away from that type of business now. It doesn't take any less time to design a site for a cheapskate than for a premium client, and if you take pride in what you do and want people to get good outcomes, then you must give them good inputs.

HTH,
Jane

Hey Bailey,

Another good post with tons of useful info, but since WordPress can handle "pages" as of WordPress 1.5, all you need is the Semiologic "Static Front Page" plugin and maybe some minor tweaks to your page templates and you've got yourself a CMS instead of a blog.

While WYSIWYG plugins have been available for a while now, with the introduction of built in WYSIWYG in version 2.0 it's an even better solution for folks who want a website built for them but prefer to manage it themselves.

Cheers,