From John's blog:

What are your thoughts? What's your experience -- and as it relates to various products?

I agree.

I have a product that is fairly recreational, which sells more than some of the more important health products that I've seen. Most campaigns don't sell hard enough.

I have about a 3-4% refund rate. I notice that the majority of those are people who were oversold - they didn't really need my course and due to my liberal refund policy, they back out.

That's a good and healthy sign of any marketing campaign. It means you're pulling in a healthy percentage of your market - just a little above the average prospect.

As long as you're honest and ethical, you can and should sell hard.

By the way, currently my conversion rate for this product is 1,5% and moving towards 2% through testing - without list building techniques, straight off the page, first time visits. Minimal effort for me at a profitable response rate...

Hi JP,

I don't know if this is the question you are really asking but he is right.

If your refund rate is too low then your PRICE may be too low
or your marketing message too weak. This means that not enough
people are buying your product so that you can filter your customers
AFTER they buy.

You marketing funnel is therefore too narrow!

You want to have refunds because this indicates that your marketing
funnel is wide enough.

It's like the fisherman's net .. drag in everything and then sort
afterwards.

Regards,

Ray L. Edwards,
"the gets results copywriter!"

John is 100% correct.

Joe Sugarman says the same thing. If you're not hitting at least a 5% refund rate then you aren't selling hard enough.

I once posted that in another forum and I was amazed at the back-lash of negativity. All I got was, "How could you sell any product that has a 5% return rate? That's immoral. You're selling a product that's flawed."

I was shocked that they didn't "get it".

They just couldn't understand that the harder to sell something the "wider" the prospect list you're going to attract. And as a consequence you're going to sell your product to people that aren't quite your "perfect-match" prospects and THAT'S WHY your refund rate will go up and NOT BECAUSE you're selling a slipshod product.

Yeah... when I read it, it reminded me of Clayton Makepeace's opinion that if he's making his clients a profit on their initial mailings he's not pushing the envelope hard enough (in the case of MO companies that want to simply acquire buyers and build profits on the back-end).

I found John's blog post interesting... and that refund issue caught my eye.

Marc Goldman and I were talking about this last week... the idea of what's "acceptable" in terms of returns. It can be a bit unnerving to see products come back. But, if you know what your numbers should be... and your margins... you can factor that in.

I'm sure it also varies from one industry to the next! Example: With my People Builders we offer the program on 30-day risk-free trial preview.

They get an invoice with it... have 30 days to use it and try it out. If they like it they keep it and pay the invoice... if not they can return it and owe nothing.

And, we found that the numbers could be significant with certain audiences and very low with others. Same offer -- different audience -- different results.

Anyone else have specific experiences to share?

Interesting assumption these people were apparently making -- anytime a customer asks for a refund, it MUST be the seller's fault.

Ken S.

Ken, I'm glad you mentioned the issue of whether refunds are the seller's fault.

If you're talking about a product that is a widget, and the widget just doesn't do what was advertised, then I'd say "yes, that's the seller's fault."

But...in a case where the product is instructional, like John's product (or other info-products, or seminars, etc.)...not only is it unlikely to be the seller's fault, it's more likely to be the "fault" of a buyer who is either:

1. A serial refunder who just wanted a copy of the product, or
2. Lazy, and just didn't want to do any of the work advised in the product.

This assumes, of course, that the product in question is not crap. That's a different story.

Exactly -- over on the Warrior Forum, there's a recurring thread where sellers tell their refund horror stories -- some buyers have amazing nerve.

One example: a buyer initiates a credit card chargeback for the sale, but he knows that it takes one to two weeks for the seller to be notified by mail of the chargeback, so he immediately goes to Clickbank and also gets a refund there.

Ken S.

I sell a service for which I've never had a refund.

The site is converting between 3.1 and 3.3 percent.

But I'm sending very qualified traffic via PPC.

In January, I upped my maximum cost per click to see what would happen.

Conversions dropped to 1%. I was paying more, getting more visitors, and converting the same number of sales. Still no refunds.

I think people are less hesitant to return a product than ask for a refund on a service because of the relationship that's built through providing a service.

Ryan

Lately, I have hit the 15% percent mark. My sales just started to increase over the past two months and the refunds are starting to mount up. At first, I was a little disappointed, considering that I put a lot of time, research, and my own personal experience into the guide.

The Ultimate Guide To Products For Resale not only gives people the ability to buy wholesale for resale, but there are sources contained within the guide that will let people pursue a B2B path as well - all for 57.00!

The guide is over 230 pages long, and lists over 800 (updated)supply "sources & resources." I am still amazed by the fact that even with this overwhelming amount of information - people still find some ridiculous excuse for wanting their money back.

My favorite, is the guy who could not find any bargains!

However, as some have pointed out, that will happen even with the best products, and if you are not getting a fair amount of returns, you really are not pushing - or selling hard enough. Good advice, and this thread has put things in perspective for me.

Robert..