Hi, I was wondering if some of the debate about long versus short copy comes from another line of reasoning I often see online:
"Branding" is for large corporate clients, and only needs relatively short copy
"Selling" is for marketers, who are pushing their products.
Personally, I think this distinction is artificial, since corporate clients "sell" even while creating an online presence, and marketers are doing branding with their choice of graphics and copy. But it very often does seem that way, in my surfing online: the "advertising folk" who like short copy and "branding", and the marketing folk who like "sales letters".
Interestingly, on Usbourne's copywriting list, this whole topic was debated for a bit, and everyone finally agreed that long copy can be excellent, if needed to show the benefits of the product...so his own list saw the value of long copy in some instances.

Interesting article by Usborne on MarketingProfs.com.

http://www.marketingprofs.com/3/usborne2.asp

Comments?

Earth shattering. Total contradictionIs this the same guy talking we have heard a lot of recently?

Yes, it is, and when push comes to shove, Nick shows that he understands what it's really all about...great article that brings up some good points. He's asking for people to take the challenge, and plunge into real, honest, INTERESTING copy that goes outside the ordinary to excite the reader.
Excellent advice, if you ask me...

I know what you mean, Alan. I get mixed messages from Nick, but I'm willing to extend the benefit of the doubt. He may be going through changes. I don't think he's insincere.

I do wish he would make up his mind, but I'm willing to stick with whatever is developing.

Peter Stone

Tell you what I am willing to lay my cards on the table and be controversial. Why? I simply couldnt care less!

To be frank, I used to like Nick and his stuff. I used to enjoy his letter. I used to think his work was good.

I still respect his voice like I would respect anyones. We all have opinions and thats human. I have NO feelings of anything in particular against him or anyone else for that matter. But you know... Copywriters are reminding me more of hairdressers every single day and I find it more than irritating.

Let me explain: For those that dont know me I spent 20 years as a senior leading hair stylist. Top rates, top clients, great money all the usual stuff.

About ten years into that career I discovered there are three levels of stylist.

Bad. Good. Brilliant.

I eventually came into the 3rd cat. Here is what I hated with Hairdressers. The best way they could thinkof to elevate themselves to a higher level was to slag everyone else of within their own inner circles. Never directly but always cutting remarks or innuendos that could hurt. Truth was it was simply to try and lower others to elevate themselves.

I never did that. Why? Simple I let me work do the talking. Thats how I got away with charging 100% more than any other stylist in the town I worked. Thats how I consistently produced the best trainees around. They always went to greater things.

You know David Ogilvy said... " the best way to get good clients is to create great advertising... "

He didnt run around lower everyone else. You just had to read the respect he had for others in his circles.

John Carlton, Gary Halbert, Jack Forde, Mike Fortin, Joe Vitale and many others. They are brilliant copywriters. Do you hear them saying anything about levels of others. They may think it but do they openly say it?

Nick may be good but... he isnt one of the guys above for sure. That doesnt mean anything though. Its a different style, level, type, format, techniqure call it what you like, we are all doing different stuff.

They all have the time based experience I want. They all produce "real" copywriting that works. They all let their work do the talking. That's what we allshould be doing.

There are far to many "inner cliques" of the, " we have been online since 1996 brigade and had a forum" So what. Big deal. Dughhhhhh. There are some copywriters up and coming now that are going to be tearing the pants some of the comfortable ones. Pete... you are going to be one of them your work is coming through tops!

Time even I am spending now commenting on this subject is wasted time. If we have anything to say about others we should make it constructive not destructive. We should all be building not tearing down. There is more than plenty work for all of us.

Love me, hate me I dont care. Lets stop the pulling down and start helping each other with constructive talk!

From the heart.

Alan,

Excellent post, I'm right with you.

I live in Italy, and it can be quite disturbing at times how frequently it happens, that as soon as a person leaves the room, all the others start slamming him/her. I have shocked a group more than once by simply shouting "basta!" (stop it!).

I don't think Nick is getting slammed here in the least, he has said some very contradictory things (perhaps his motivation is to simply "stir the pot") - well, it's getting stirred! He carries an important voice in the copywriting world, so it comes with the territory.

Spot on mate. (I'm American, we don't say that, but I work with a couple of English chaps - - here in Italy - makes for a wild linguistic pot luck at times!)

Constructive help makes us feel better as well, not just the receiver. A definite win - win... great situations!

All the best,

Tim

Great mate... thanks.

Alan Forest Smith has extended an unusual degree of kindnes toward me on my return to the world of the writer.

I can't imagine that his "regular working guy's" background in the hair business could do anything, but help him identify with a given reader's values and their motivation for buying.

Even though his background is in the hair business, but I'm still as bald as a rat's ass, I'm eternally gratefull to him.


Peter Stone

LOL - Rat's asses are bald? I thought they were fuzzy?

Tim