Now you've got me laughing out loud.

One would think that they would simply click off a page or give a letter a toss in the circular if it didn't grab them by their puritanical, European throats.

I've said it before, it's my responsibility to my client to take every last penny from whomever cares to read a marketing piece from me. My social responsibility extends to where I leave the customer's life just a little bit better in exchange.

They wouldn't be screaming so loudly if they weren't so sensitive to sales messages. I think they're probably good prospects - for audio buttons.

(You and I know that each of Nick's followers has both an Electrolux AND a Kirby in their closet).

Peter Stone

Nick's just done a poor job of stating his position, I think. Uncharacteristic, but it happens to all of us.

As far as the question of long vs short copy ... Why is this even a debate? There are two quotes that I try to use to answer this for every letter I write:

"You can't be too long. You can only be too boring." and
"Take as long as you need to tell your story, and not one paragraph more."

It ain't the length of the letter, folks, it's how you use the words.

That being said, a good copywriter can usually do a lot more with more words. If you can keep people reading, every point you make will help increase the conversion rate.

Long copy will almost always beat short copy - IF you have good copy to begin with.


Paul

That may be so, Paul. I do think Nick's point is valid. But it's misplaced.

The point goes back when Nick made a comment in his Excess Voice newsletter, where he said, and I'm paraphrasing, that "all long copy salesletters are attempts to compensate for poor or 'me-too' products." (And with regards to this debate, he indirectly included 'Ginsu-Knife' type copy as well.)

In fact, let me quote Nick, verbatim. In issue #37, he said:

"I think that long copy is often used to compensate for a boring product or service. That is to say, the less a product has to recommend it, the more you have to say in order to close the sale. (...) When you have yet another ‘me too’ product or service, with marginal differences at best, you have to hammer away at the reader, trying to create some kind of ‘perceived’ benefit or advantage. Long copy that promotes boring products becomes manipulative, pushy and sometimes dishonest. You have to try to create something out of nothing."

This is what I mean about Nick's point being misplaced: Sure, long (or pushy) copy is often used to compensate for poor products. But not ALL long copy sell poor products. Moreover, using hyperbole doesn't mean the product is a scam, either -- which was the issue in this particular debate.

My comment was to clarify that one should not blanket all long or emotionally charged copy as a means of selling a poor product. That's all.

It seems we're in violent agreement here, Mike. ;)

I was more wondering why so many people seem to be taking the "long copy vs short copy" argument seriously. Length of copy is, in my opinion, irrelevant, except as far as it follows those two rules.

Sorry if that was less than clear.

I have written some VERY long letters (in excess of 40 pages), but I can think of an incredibly persuasive example of short copy. A mere three words are enough:

"Wallet or bullet."

Context is everything in life. And bullets are powerful even in the most mundane copy. ;)


Paul

Gosh, Paul. No, You were ABSOLUTELY clear.

I was just clarifying my position in regards to your point about Nick not being clear with his. Plus, those 2 rules you mentioned are dead-on. In fact, I would paraphrase you by saying that copy needs to be as long as is needed to make the sale.

But you're right -- this debate is irrelevant to us copywriters. (Or at least to us copywriters who understand selling.) But it is relevant to some of the people watching this going on (i.e., our clients or prospective clients).

Why? Sure, the person I need to cater to is the person who buys from the copy. And that's my client's client. But when it comes to a point where I go from copywriter to consultant, where I have to spend inordinate amounts of energy trying to convince a client to go with long copy, where I have to re-program some poor, brainwashed soul who became convinced that shorter is better since some "other" top copywriter said so, then I feel the need to debate this issue.

And Nick was right on that one ... Passion ignites debate. And debate educates. It's healthy. And it offers choice.

Roughly 5% of us do. It's frightening to me how many wannabe copywriters have never SOLD. You can do it, of course, but it's not nearly as easy or as clear if you haven't. Bless the folks who've done it.


Why would you hire that kind of client in the first place?


Paul

No. But often, clients hire me to write copy, and then want to change things after I give them the first draft (i.e., make it shorter).

Hi Guys,

Sorry to join this thread so late but let me see, Nick is saying, essentially:

long copy = scam = poor product which needs help to sell it

Therefore, he must be meaning that a good product doesn't need long copy and is sold only with short copy.

Ahah! I'm going to have to take a second look at all that SPAM in my inbox because it all uses short copy. And now that I know this indicates a good product, I might just have to take another look. Hold on...

..............

Oh no. Nick must have something else in mind. These SPAM guys only want to sell me Viagra and penis enlargement products. Now, I don't need either so I can't really say I've tried the products to know if they are scams or not but I sure wish they'd stop sending me 200 messages a day.

I think this subject needs more clarification.

Carl Galletti

Well Carl I dont know anything about your enlargement products and "if" you need them, we can all trust you on that one .

Great comment, I agree 100%

Perfectly said, Carl.

If one makes a blanket statement, then one would obviously assume the it applies in all cases ... And that the converse would also be true. Which it "ain't!"

I agree, in principle, with Nick. When he said that the better or more original the product is, the less copy it will need to sell. That's true. (And Nick used Google, Napster, Amazon as examples in his argument.)

But I would submit that, when they first started out, they leveraged other types of marketing to do their bidding: viral marketing, being the case here. And that long or salesy copy was an avenue they did not choose. Again, Nick clarified by saying it's a matter of choice. And I agree.

(I would also submit that they -- Napster, Google, et al -- may not have directly used long or salesy, emotionally-charged copy to sell. But they leveraged other people's efforts to do that for them. Plus, these businesses chose not to sell in the first place. They wanted market penetration first. That's why Google and Napster are/were free. And Amazon has an affiliate program.)

That said, the issue is, how often does one encounter a new, red-hot, sells-by-itself product? Not often. As Brian Tracy once noted in "The Psychology of Selling," most companies have made (and keep making) their fortunes with "products that are only 10% new."

For example, Wendy's sells burgers. McDonald's, Burger King, A&W and most other fast-food joints sell burgers. But Wendy simply packaged their burgers slightly differently -- a square patty. But a burger is a burger is a burger, right?

Look at it this way: some big, Fortune 500 insurance companies sell terrific products. Needed products, too. And that's life insurance. Some of them even offer new, unique and very good products in that industry.

But, does life insurance sell by itself? No. Do you think every new product will always be a surefire seller that will take the market by storm, with or without copy? Of course not.

Heck, I would even venture to add that companies like Google and Napster and Amazon, who primarily make their revenues by selling advertising and creating strategic partnerships (i.e., Google with Yahoo, the 'New' Naspter with the recording industry, Amazon with publishing houses, etc), required salespeople and long copy sales proposals to accomplish this.

My 2 cents